It's the same old story

[sjors]

It's the same old story and I allready know some people won't like it but...

Believe me; I read all the old posts about staining but they didn't help me much, I expiremented a lot but I still wonder:
It's a wellknown fact that getting Arsenic Trioxid or Realgar is a major problem in many countries nowadays. In my opinion there must be, chemically spoken, an alternative but simelar way to Arsenic Trioxid;
A freely available substance, a substitute that reacts in the same way with iron and nickel; a process that gives the same result like Arsenic Trioxid or Realgar does.
I'm sure i'm not the only one with this question (problem) and I appreciate and respect the proper, "old" ways but sometimes you don't have any other option than find and use "new" solutions...
What will be the alternative way?

[Henk]

Sjors,

If there was an alternative way, many of us would use that way. Unfortunately there is only one proper way to stain a pamor blade and that is the use of warangan, with arsenic. Nothing else react as lemon juice with arsenic. Believe me, many of the respectable forummembers tried to stain pamorblades with other solutions, but thus far nobody succeeded to get a result that came in the direction of staining with warangan.

[Rick]

Henk, are you aware of anyone who stains blades traditionally in the Netherlands ?


It would seem with so much interest in keris there ..

[David]

Yep, i am afraid that the "same old story" gets the "same old answer".

[A. G. Maisey]

I have stained blades with ferric chloride, and with a mixture of sulphur, salt, and rice water.

The sulphur mix was used on an old blade and it came up very acceptable. Only ever did one blade this way, as it was too much mucking around.

Ferric chloride I've use a number of times, and for old style Javanese pamor, or Bugis pamor, it gives a fairly OK result.

I've used warangan (realgar) bought in Indonesia many, many times. The results are variable, and not always predictable. I personally don't like Javanese warangan much. In fact, at the moment the stuff that's available in Solo is absolutely no good.

I get the best results from laboratory quality white arsenic.

Yes, these days there are difficulties associated with buying it, but in Australia, if you have a Hazchem certificate you can get it. You can get a Hazchem certificate, that is, a certificate that qualifies you to handle hazardous chemicals, for the cost a bit of tech attendance and some easy exams.My guess would be that the same or a similar situation applies in other countries. I guess it all depends on how bad somebody wants to stain blades correctly.

[Marcokeris]

I stained blades with warangan many, many times. I tried also with others substances but the result was always bad . By warangam with new blades the result has been always good ........with old blades sometimes good.... sometimes accettable...sometimes no good
If a person finds an easy way to stain the blades he must win chemic's Nobel
Tomorrow I must stain an old blade ....first time (a week ago) the result was no accettable. Now I have done a new liquid (brasilian limes and warangan) i hope to have a different exit (IMO the more difficult passage is the final : when I must clean the blade with water)

[sjors]

Yep, i am afraid that the "same old story" gets the "same old answer".

David, I was allready afraid of that
Let there be no misunderstandig: I prefer the "old" way and I'm fully aware of the fact that everything is allready tried but I am just wondering what happens chemically if one applies warangan and lemonjuice on iron...
I'm not a chemist (I wish I was) but this would be an interessting field of research: I know that, chemically seen, there should be way(s) to get the same results... but still there aren't!

So far nobody had similar results but in the past someone did discover the effect of lime and warangan on iron and nickel.
I wonder why, till now, inspite of all our knowledge, no one was able to reproduce that "discovery" (after all, it's just chemical science )

Henk; if I know an alternative way, you're the first I will tell

Mr. Maisey: Are you able to tell we what the difference is in using rice water instead of tapwater? Does it prevent rust or is there another reason: what is the effect of the rice? Thank you, Sjors

Marcokeris: chemic's Nobel, that would be nice but I allready know it won't be me

[A. G. Maisey]

Sorry, I have no idea what the difference would be between rice water and any other water. I used rice water because I was following a method described in a 19th century book---it called for rice water, I used rice water, the method worked.

[sjors]

Dear Mr. Maisey,

Would it be possible to publice the sulfur, salt ricewaterreceipe here?
That would be very nice

Thank you, Sjors

[A. G. Maisey]

There is no recipe, per se.

I read a description in a 19th century book written by an Englishman who observed the process. I forget what quantities I used, but I would still have the book, although I cannot remember which one it is.If I can find it, I'll post what is written.

[sjors]

Thank you very much!

[Henk]

Rick,

I'm aware of some people who stains pamorblades traditionally here in Holland. Especially one person who wants to stay anonymous did the staining for me on some keris who needed it badly.
As Alan and Marcokeris said the results vary, especially on older blades. I was told that the result depended on the kind of materials that was used for the blade. Older blades where made with knickle contenting iron with very low nickle. Those blades have a more grey pamor appearance. Some blades need a week staining before the pamor becomes visible, other blades needed half an hour to get a result.

Sjors,

Just like Alan I stained a worthless keris blade once with sulphur to find out the result. The result was acceptable indeed, but that smell.....
You won't get permission from the mrs. to bring a keris stained with sulphur in the house. And if you get permission it will save you some money. Your friends won't come to drink a beer with you .

[sjors]

Okay Henk it's obvious, it's always the same: you have to choose between your relatives and your hobbies, anyway you loose

[A. G. Maisey]

You clean a blade with pineapple juice, especially in hot weather, the stink will lift your head off. The growth on the top of the juice makes you feel like some repulsive alien is going to crawl out of it when you're asleep.

Henk, old Jawa blades are mostly contrasting types of iron with no nickel content at all. The white material ( or as you say, light grey) is iron with a high phosphorus content. A lot of pamor luwu has very low nickel content, and that has similar appearance to the multi irons type pamor.

One of the big problems with staining is in the method used. It seems that most people these days use the soak method, that is really only a cheap and effective way of doing a lot of blades, its the method used by commercial stainers.If you use this method, sooner or later the suspension of lime juice and arsenic loses its potency and on the way towards this loss of potency, you get lesser and lesser results.

This soak method is not what should be used for valuable blades, nor in a situation where you have only one or two blades to do, nor when you have a blade that you want the best possible result from, nor when you have a difficult blade.

You've got to get a blade really nice and white before you even start to think about staining. When you think you've got an acceptably stained blade, take the blade out into direct sunlight and examine it very carefully from several different angles. Often you will find patches of brown or yellow under the black of the stain. Depending on the value and importance of the blade, a blade that shows these discolored patches should be considered for a re-do. Clean off, start again. I've spent days one after the other on important blades, trying to get exactly the correct finish. Nobody doing commercial staining can afford to do this, and nobody I know would be prepared to pay for the work if he did.But working on your own blades, or doing something as a favour, you can afford to adopt a different approach.

The best finish possible varies from blade to blade, and very definitely depends upon the material.

[Henk]

Thanks Alan, for your reply.

The few people I know who do staining here in Holland don't use the soak method. The use a brush to bring the warangan on the blade. Not only the loss of potency but the lack of control during the process is the reason why they don't soak.

For a commercial stainer it is impossible to work in this way indeed. The person who did staining for me works in the same way. When he was not satisfied he cleaned the blade and started over again.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, brush is the safest and easiest way to do it. I've been telling people how to do it this way for over 30 years now, and I've published it a couple of times.

There is at least one better way than brush, but I'm not prepared to publish that, as there is a degree of risk involved.

[Henk]

Alan,

As you once said, arsenic is as deadly as a magnum 44. But used in the right way it isn't dangerous at all.

I think it is very wise not to publish a more risky method in public.

[Rick]

So Henk,
When you stained the keris with Sulphur what did you use for ingredients ?

Did the blade really stink even after a thorough wash and oiling ?









I'm thinking of trying ferric on this blade as it has a smooth surface .

[A. G. Maisey]

Rick, that blade will be difficult to get a satisfactory result on with ferric chloride.

You need to get a blade absolutely 100% clean before you begin any staining. It must be white. Your blade has a few spots where rust will still be there, even after a really thorough soak and scrub. Those spots where there is still rust will give a dirty yellowish tint to the blade when you stain with ferric chloride.

You could give it a try and see if its acceptable to you, if its not, you just clean off and do something different. Spotting the rust areas with hydrochloric acid can help in preparation.

Something else that can give an almost OK result is a wash with dilute nitric acid.It works OK, but it is absolutely horrible stuff to use.

In fact, there's really no need to dwell too long on the advisability of any staining:- if you feel like doing it, just go ahead and do it; if you don't like the result you just clean it off, you can't hurt the blade no matter what you do---barring things like soaks in aqua regis.

[Marcokeris]

[QUOTE=Marcokeris]I stained blades with warangan many, many times........


Yesterday i tried to stain my old blade with new solution (Warangan and limes) well..... the result was a real fully unsucesfull
To day i have used my very old solution (with a little new solution inside) and the result has been good (better than the original old pamor)
Conclusion:

[Henk]

Rick,

The chemistry teacher made the sulphur acid solution for me. She used concentrated sulphur acid and distilled water. I did it in the chemistry room next to the classroom at school. Some students came to take a look at the process from time to to time with the permission of the teacher. It became an educational project as well. The solution was as strong as the sulphur acid in a car battery. It was 20 or 25%.

And yes, even after washing and oiling that lovely stink of the sulphur came into your nose. I just left the blade (it was a worthless one after all) a few weeks in the garage. Now it is in a box on the attic in the garage. Didn't look at it for ages.

[Rick]

Thanks Henk ,
I think I'll stay away from sulphur .

[A. G. Maisey]

Henk, that was an etch with sulphuric acid, not a stain with sulphur.

You can get some sort of a result with just about any acid, nitric is probably the best result from an acid, but its horrible stuff to use, and I would not recommend it.

The sulphur stain job that I did years and years ago was powder sulphur mixed to a paste. The description in the book called for it to be wrapped in a banana leaf, but I wrapped it in plastic.The process took about a week.

I've had a look for that book, but its not in my book cases, which means it is in a cardboard box in my garage. I forget the name, but it was by an Englishman, it was an Oxford University Press reprint, and it has red dust covers.I'll locate it one day.

[Rick]

Well, I had at the Ganja Iras with the Ferric .
It took a couple of tries and the effect may be the reverse of what it might be if traditionally stained ...

I just wanted to see the pamor .

[Marcokeris]

Rick
It seems a bendo segodo/uler lulut pamor.....but....it's like a negative picture!!

[Rick]

That's what I meant to illustrate; maybe the positive effect shown ( see bottom picture) would be caused by Arsenic .

With Arsenic the iron goes black instead of the result I got with ferric .

I see uler lulut (albeit a loose one) Marco .

Of course if this keris is Balinese the pamor may be called differently there .

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Rick

Of course if this keris is Balinese the pamor may be called differently there .

Rante ,Sapta Resi

[Rick]

I meant there may be a Balinese word or term for this pamor rather than Javanese .

[A. G. Maisey]

Rick, you have still darkened the ferric material, exactly as you would have had you used warangan, the difference is that it is simply not as dark.

I've made damascus blades that incorporated mild steel + 01 + nickel, and I've stained them with ferric chloride. The end result is very similar to what we see in a keris blade.

If the pamor is high phosphorus content iron, then you're going to get a dark grey, light grey effect from ferric chloride, but if there is nickelous content, the nickel bearing material will still not be effected by the ferric chloride.

[Rick]

Now I'm confused Alan,
Warangan would turn the core of this keris black; no ?
Why then does the ferric render it as lighter than the pamor material ?
The first ferric stain was quite muddy .










BTW; did we decide an origin for this keris; E. Jawa, Bali ?










Is it my technique ?