Interesting Tribal Shaska with wootz blade

RSWORD · 5th December 2004, 09:28 PM

Here is a good example of a tribal shaska but the rare feature is the wootz blade. The blade is very thin as was preferred in parts of the Caucasus. Wootz blades on Shaska's are relatively scarce and this one has a nice pattern.

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2004, 11:07 PM

Beautiful shashka example Rick!!
It really is unusual to see one with a wootz blade and with marking!! These distinctly fighting examples with simple horn grips are difficult to determine whether Chechen or Daghestani. If I am not mistaken the silver item that is placed in the grip is a form of award/medal and quite significant.
Keyboard about to short out..drool!!!

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 6th December 2004, 02:06 AM

I'd like to see the close-up of the handle, but I am willing to bet it is not an award. The awards worn on the sword handle are either St. Anna IV degree or St. George and neither has the configuration seen here. This one, looking like a comma, was a reasonably frequent decorative stud (or a between-studs gee-gaw) seen on either Circassian or, more often, Chechen shashkas. The blade is obviously Persian , taken from a Shamshir, and I would vote for the Chechen origin of the weapon.
Nice one... Pity the scabbard did not survive...

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2004, 02:34 AM

Ariel,
The award concept I was thinking of was concerning a Daghestani shashka that had an oval with serrated trim and was said to be a sort of tribal award. Weren't the other awards you note used on Russian shashkas and more as military honors?
I tend to agree with your observation that this is likely a Persian shamshir blade. Is there any key notes that would help distinguish a shashka such as this as Chechen vs. Daghestani by hilt characteristics? I know that the decorated niello and embossed hilts are said to be distinguished by some variation in the vegetal decor and depth of relief etc.
Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 6th December 2004, 04:17 PM

By the way, is it really wootz? I understand that the appearance of wootz is that of very small, tight and compact elongated grains. That was , at least, what I saw each and every time when I handled a real wootz sword and that is how all the examples in the Fiegel's book look like.
This one, in contrast, looks like longish, loose and haphazard threads. I would vote for Shams rather than Wootz.
Metallurgists, correct me!

RSWORD · 7th December 2004, 08:24 PM

Gentleman:

Thank you for the feedback thusfar. The teardrop decoration on the handle is inlayed with silver. I do not know if this is simply a decorative affectation or due to the precious metal, a sign of rank or symbol status. The combination of a wootz blade and silver inlay on the handle would make one think it was owned by someone that could afford those qualities.

Ariel,

It is definitely wootz. Sham is a terminology to describe a type of wootz. Wootz patterns come in a wide variety. Most authors on the subject divide wootz into no less than 4 or 5 categories based on pattern. Wootz that is termed sham typically has the long flowing grain with little contrast. Typically, Syrian or Turkish blades often feature this style and are termed sham. This blade has a bit more activity overall and has a very good color contrast so I would probably not label it as Sham.

ariel · 7th December 2004, 10:10 PM

My understanding is that the term "wootz" (or "ukku") refers strictly to crystalline damascus, whereas "shams" is a variety of the mechanical damascus. These are two totally different animals.
By the way, "shams" (not "sham") has nothing to do with "sham" as "fake" ot "imitation". Shams means Syrian.

Jeff D · 7th December 2004, 11:01 PM

As collectors we have considered sham a type of wootz. It is not a mechanical pattern. However Verhoeven, while analysing Zschokkes blades determined that his blade number 8, which has the sham pattern, is hypoeutectoid and therefore not capable of forming Fe3C particles which give true wootz its patterns. Sham therefore is not a "true wootz" but is made from superfical bands of ferrite in a pearlite matrix. I will leave it to the chemical engineers to explain the rest as I am not qualified.

Jeff

P.S. the pattern shown on this great piece does appear to be sham.

RSWORD · 8th December 2004, 02:37 AM

It is definately difficult to try and classify wootz as there are a lot of opinions on how to classify. If you look at Manfred Sachse book "Damascus Steel" he breaks wootz down into 5 categories:
1) Stripy damask or Sham
2) Water damask
3) Wavy damask
4) chequered mottle (network) damask
5) Ladder (vertebrae) damask

If you look at the examples of wootz posted on this(p. 72 in the book), my example is much closer to Water damask than Sham based on Sachse classification.

Ann Feuerbach · 24th January 2006, 04:26 PM

Hi all,
From a technological point of view Sham is a type of wootz/pulad as it is crucible steel, however it is made of hypoeutectoid steel (less than 0.8% Carbon), whereas Verhoevens "true" spheroid crucible steel patterns needs to have above 0.8% carbon (hypereutecotid) for that type of microstructure to occur. For those who are interested, arguabley...The Sham pattern is caused by ferrite/pearlite banding whereas the other types (kara Khorasan for example) the pattern is made from the alignment of the cementite (the stripes) in a pearlitic/ferritic matric (background). So from a ancient technology point of view Sham is a type of wootz/pulad as it is made of crucible steel. In ancient times (and even today when doing backyard production) it would be dificult to control the carbon content to such a small degree (0.05% difference would change the microstructure) so, in theory, the same craftsmen could make Shan and Kara Khorasan blades from the same crucible firing, just one handful of plant matter contained more carbon than the other.

Rivkin · 26th January 2006, 04:36 AM

Attached is a Shamil's period decoration "for bravery". 6-point star (as symbol of vainakhs, for example as seen on ingush carpets) with something in arabic.

I've never heard Shamil awarding shashkas as a recognition, even through gifts of weapons were kind well accepted as a tradition.

ALEX · 26th January 2006, 10:30 AM

Rick,

Regarding your Tribal shashka - it has Assad Allah stamp (my friend can read Arabic) - a sign of Persian blade - the pattern and form on yours closely resemble the blade I just received, and will post shortly. Mine is also thin and light. Please notice the striking similarity in patter AND the bare handle, the way it connects to the blade - I think it could have been re-handled into shaska from shamshir (just my quess though).

And I second your opinion Rick - it's NOT sham pattern. I'd say it's Water or Network wootz.

Rivkin · 26th January 2006, 01:43 PM

I could just read "Allah". Following Astvatsaturjan's analysis in "Turkish weapons", it is hard to point age or even origin of "A-A" blades. It is quite similar to "Andrea Ferrara" situation - the signature that became so popular that no one really knows which ones are original and which ones are not.

ham · 27th January 2006, 05:47 PM

RSword has himself a fine and unusual example of a shashka with wootz blade-- it may be a refitted Persian one but it would be necessary to consider its thickness and section before establishing this. The curvature is so shallow, however, that it most likely was commissioned by the owner to be hilted as it now appears, probably in Tbilisi. This was an important center of arms production, where Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and too many ethnicities to list, worked and traded. Wootz was certainly forged there, and possibly elsewhere in the Caucasus as well. Tbilisi smiths were to a considerable extent influenced by then-pervasive Ottoman forms-- the "comma-" shaped inlay on the pommel evokes the small reinforcing plates found on the pommels of Ottoman swords where the lanyard passes through, and the inscription on this blade is in Ottoman, rather than Persian, style as well. Incidentally, it isn't a signature, it is a prayer, MASHA ALLAH! or GOD BLESS!

Nice sword and a rare one.

Ham

5th December 2004, 09:28 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Interesting Tribal Shaska with wootz blade Here is a good example of a tribal shaska but the rare feature is the wootz blade. The blade is very thin as was preferred in parts of the Caucasus. Wootz blades on Shaska's are relatively scarce and this one has a nice pattern. Attached Images

26th January 2006, 04:36 AM	#11
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Attached is a Shamil's period decoration "for bravery". 6-point star (as symbol of vainakhs, for example as seen on ingush carpets) with something in arabic. I've never heard Shamil awarding shashkas as a recognition, even through gifts of weapons were kind well accepted as a tradition. Attached Images

26th January 2006, 10:30 AM	#12
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Stamp and Pattern Rick, Regarding your Tribal shashka - it has Assad Allah stamp (my friend can read Arabic) - a sign of Persian blade - the pattern and form on yours closely resemble the blade I just received, and will post shortly. Mine is also thin and light. Please notice the striking similarity in patter AND the bare handle, the way it connects to the blade - I think it could have been re-handled into shaska from shamshir (just my quess though). And I second your opinion Rick - it's NOT sham pattern. I'd say it's Water or Network wootz.

27th January 2006, 05:47 PM	#14
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	RSword has himself a fine and unusual example of a shashka with wootz blade-- it may be a refitted Persian one but it would be necessary to consider its thickness and section before establishing this. The curvature is so shallow, however, that it most likely was commissioned by the owner to be hilted as it now appears, probably in Tbilisi. This was an important center of arms production, where Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and too many ethnicities to list, worked and traded. Wootz was certainly forged there, and possibly elsewhere in the Caucasus as well. Tbilisi smiths were to a considerable extent influenced by then-pervasive Ottoman forms-- the "comma-" shaped inlay on the pommel evokes the small reinforcing plates found on the pommels of Ottoman swords where the lanyard passes through, and the inscription on this blade is in Ottoman, rather than Persian, style as well. Incidentally, it isn't a signature, it is a prayer, MASHA ALLAH! or GOD BLESS! Nice sword and a rare one. Ham Last edited by ham; 27th January 2006 at 06:10 PM.

5th December 2004, 11:07 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Beautiful shashka example Rick!! It really is unusual to see one with a wootz blade and with marking!! These distinctly fighting examples with simple horn grips are difficult to determine whether Chechen or Daghestani. If I am not mistaken the silver item that is placed in the grip is a form of award/medal and quite significant. Keyboard about to short out..drool!!! All the best, Jim

6th December 2004, 02:06 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I'd like to see the close-up of the handle, but I am willing to bet it is not an award. The awards worn on the sword handle are either St. Anna IV degree or St. George and neither has the configuration seen here. This one, looking like a comma, was a reasonably frequent decorative stud (or a between-studs gee-gaw) seen on either Circassian or, more often, Chechen shashkas. The blade is obviously Persian , taken from a Shamshir, and I would vote for the Chechen origin of the weapon. Nice one... Pity the scabbard did not survive...

6th December 2004, 02:34 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Ariel, The award concept I was thinking of was concerning a Daghestani shashka that had an oval with serrated trim and was said to be a sort of tribal award. Weren't the other awards you note used on Russian shashkas and more as military honors? I tend to agree with your observation that this is likely a Persian shamshir blade. Is there any key notes that would help distinguish a shashka such as this as Chechen vs. Daghestani by hilt characteristics? I know that the decorated niello and embossed hilts are said to be distinguished by some variation in the vegetal decor and depth of relief etc. Best regards, Jim

6th December 2004, 04:17 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	By the way, is it really wootz? I understand that the appearance of wootz is that of very small, tight and compact elongated grains. That was , at least, what I saw each and every time when I handled a real wootz sword and that is how all the examples in the Fiegel's book look like. This one, in contrast, looks like longish, loose and haphazard threads. I would vote for Shams rather than Wootz. Metallurgists, correct me!

7th December 2004, 08:24 PM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Gentleman: Thank you for the feedback thusfar. The teardrop decoration on the handle is inlayed with silver. I do not know if this is simply a decorative affectation or due to the precious metal, a sign of rank or symbol status. The combination of a wootz blade and silver inlay on the handle would make one think it was owned by someone that could afford those qualities. Ariel, It is definitely wootz. Sham is a terminology to describe a type of wootz. Wootz patterns come in a wide variety. Most authors on the subject divide wootz into no less than 4 or 5 categories based on pattern. Wootz that is termed sham typically has the long flowing grain with little contrast. Typically, Syrian or Turkish blades often feature this style and are termed sham. This blade has a bit more activity overall and has a very good color contrast so I would probably not label it as Sham.

7th December 2004, 10:10 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My understanding is that the term "wootz" (or "ukku") refers strictly to crystalline damascus, whereas "shams" is a variety of the mechanical damascus. These are two totally different animals. By the way, "shams" (not "sham") has nothing to do with "sham" as "fake" ot "imitation". Shams means Syrian.

7th December 2004, 11:01 PM	#8
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	As collectors we have considered sham a type of wootz. It is not a mechanical pattern. However Verhoeven, while analysing Zschokkes blades determined that his blade number 8, which has the sham pattern, is hypoeutectoid and therefore not capable of forming Fe3C particles which give true wootz its patterns. Sham therefore is not a "true wootz" but is made from superfical bands of ferrite in a pearlite matrix. I will leave it to the chemical engineers to explain the rest as I am not qualified. Jeff P.S. the pattern shown on this great piece does appear to be sham.

8th December 2004, 02:37 AM	#9
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	It is definately difficult to try and classify wootz as there are a lot of opinions on how to classify. If you look at Manfred Sachse book "Damascus Steel" he breaks wootz down into 5 categories: 1) Stripy damask or Sham 2) Water damask 3) Wavy damask 4) chequered mottle (network) damask 5) Ladder (vertebrae) damask If you look at the examples of wootz posted on this(p. 72 in the book), my example is much closer to Water damask than Sham based on Sachse classification.

24th January 2006, 04:26 PM	#10
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Hi all, From a technological point of view Sham is a type of wootz/pulad as it is crucible steel, however it is made of hypoeutectoid steel (less than 0.8% Carbon), whereas Verhoevens "true" spheroid crucible steel patterns needs to have above 0.8% carbon (hypereutecotid) for that type of microstructure to occur. For those who are interested, arguabley...The Sham pattern is caused by ferrite/pearlite banding whereas the other types (kara Khorasan for example) the pattern is made from the alignment of the cementite (the stripes) in a pearlitic/ferritic matric (background). So from a ancient technology point of view Sham is a type of wootz/pulad as it is made of crucible steel. In ancient times (and even today when doing backyard production) it would be dificult to control the carbon content to such a small degree (0.05% difference would change the microstructure) so, in theory, the same craftsmen could make Shan and Kara Khorasan blades from the same crucible firing, just one handful of plant matter contained more carbon than the other.

26th January 2006, 01:43 PM	#13
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I could just read "Allah". Following Astvatsaturjan's analysis in "Turkish weapons", it is hard to point age or even origin of "A-A" blades. It is quite similar to "Andrea Ferrara" situation - the signature that became so popular that no one really knows which ones are original and which ones are not.