Friends Keris

[Robert]

This belongs to a friend and I'm thinking about purchasing it from him. Unfortunately I know less about it than he does. I'm guessing it is 20th century (1920s-1940s) but really not sure. Grip is made of horn wrapped in a rattan binding. The rattan binding may or may not be original. Any comments about this keris are extremely welcome. I don't have any measurements other than the length, I will post the rest as soon as I get them. Thanks.

Robert

[Rick]

How thick is the blade of this *kris* where it meets the hilt Robert ?
Can you take a picture looking down on the handle ? How thick is the Baca baca (blade clamp) ; it looks pretty thin .
The file work looks pretty good .
Actually comparing the blade to the overhang of the ferrule in the pictures the blade looks kinda thin as does the baca baca.
The handle is round and flared at the end ?

[Robert]

Rick,
Sorry about the spelling, brain fade problem. I'm waiting for that very information right now and will post it as soon as it arrives. As far as I know the handle is round and is flared at the end but the new picture will tell for sure. As usual I've never seen one quite like this and that is why I'm interested in the possibility of adding it to my collection. I seem to be drawn to the more unusual items. Thanks again.

Robert

[Robert]

OK,
Here are more pictures. The thickest part of the blade seems to be 1/2 inch. He didn't send a picture looking down at the very end of the hilt so I will have to have him send it later.

[Rick]

It looks like it's been rehilted or reshaped .
The Baca baca could be low grade silver .
I like the blade configuration .
It seems hefty enough ; have you held it , everything tight ?

If the price ain't too high , then you could buy . (sorry Snoopdoggy)

[Robert]

Rick,
I haven't held it yet but my friend assures me that everything is still tight on the sword. What do you think on its age and origin? Thanks.

Robert

[Rick]

You know Robert , I wouldn't want to guess its age , suffice it to say that it is not new .

Most likely this is a blade from Mindanao , but with only Cato's typology to go on personally I would be inclined to say Maguindanao . Ymmv

It would be nice to hear some of the other guys chime in here but you're not exactly getting trampled in the rush to answer your inquiries .

[Bill]

For me, the more I learn, the more I realize, the less, I know. Every Moro kris is a unique sword. Every rule, so to speak, seems to get broken. A seperate guardpiece, while generally can tell us something about the age, is not absolute. The same can be said about the blade form. Generally, it seems, in the 1940's there was a revival of the "18thC" form, which is what I think you have. Even with sword in hand, it is sometimes difficult to form an opinion. Your sword looks to be older than the 40's, but I'm not sure, to guess about the age. The hilt and wrap look receint to me, while the ferrule, seems 40's-ish. Having the scabbard, nice blade, nice price; I would buy it.

[Battara]

I would say that the blade is older, possibly Maguindanao as Rick mentions. The baka-baka looks to be silver, but the ferrule may be white brass or nickel silver, though not as sure. The rest of the hilt may be as Bill mentions, 1940s, certainly later than the blade in my estimation, especially the condition of the pommel and the rattan. May be even later than that, say, very recent.

[Robert]

OK,
Lets get a poll going. Who thinks the blade is 19th century and who thinks it is 20th century?

[Rick]

I think it would be strictly a guessing match Robert .
Are you going to buy the darn thing or not ?

[Robert]

Rick,
Yes I am probibly going to buy it if we come to a price that is fair to both of us. I was just hoping it would turn out to be a 19th century blade.

[kai]

Hi Robert,

<1 cent disclaimer on>

The possibly relatively old scabbard might be a plus, whereas the hilt seems really recent to me. How long was this kris with your friend? At least, I'd replace the rattan with a more suitable (and nicer) traditional wrapping! Clamp & ferrule would be fine with me, especially if both were to test positive for silver.

I have mixed feelings with the blade - if pressed hard I'd therefore tend to a conservative guess, i. e. 20c. I agree with Rick that the file work is quite nice. OTOH, the scroll work seems to be a bit shallow (from the pics). The convex side of the first luk could flow nicer and also the engraved lines don't follow the luks perfectly (cp. pic #4). A light cleaning etch to remove the rust would give us probably more clues on the quality of the forging (laminations/tempering).

<1 cent disclaimer off>

I'd concentrate on the blade: if you like it, go for it (regardless of exact age which we'll possibly never know). I understand that this may influence the price you might be willing to pay though...

Regards,
Kai

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by kai

I have mixed feelings with the blade - if pressed hard I'd therefore tend to a conservative guess, i. e. 20c. I agree with Rick that the file work is quite nice. OTOH, the scroll work seems to be a bit shallow (from the pics). The convex side of the first luk could flow nicer and also the engraved lines don't follow the luks perfectly (cp. pic #4).

Kai, wouldn't the specifics you mention have more to do with the SKILL of the smith than the actual age of the blade. Smith of many different skill levels have always been around. It does seem to me that this particular dapor (if i may borrow a Javanese term here ) is much more common in 19thC blades than 20th. There does seem to be a seperate gangya, so if pressed i would guess this was 19thC work.
The sheath also looks like older work.Was it made for the blade (i.e. how's the fit?)

[kai]

Hi Nechesh,

Originally Posted by nechesh

Kai, wouldn't the specifics you mention have more to do with the SKILL of the smith than the actual age of the blade. Smith of many different skill levels have always been around.

Very true - just wanted to point out some features which hadn't been mentione so far. While later blades often seem to be crafted with less attention to detail, the reverse doesn't hold true.

It does seem to me that this particular dapor (if i may borrow a Javanese term here ) is much more common in 19thC blades than 20th.

Yup, but can we differentiate between the "original" and Bill's "revival hypothesis"?

There does seem to be a seperate gangya, so if pressed i would guess this was 19thC work.

Many of the available blades with seperate gangya are from the early decades of the 20thC, so this doesn't really help to argue a late 19thC vs. early 20thC case, does it?

The sheath also looks like older work.Was it made for the blade (i.e. how's the fit?)

Good point. (Can we differentiate between old vintage and antique wood work in a tropical climate?)


This easily could really be a (late) 19thC blade with later replaced clamp and ferrule (40ies?) while the horn hilt seems to be more recent. As Rick points out, this may be mainly guessing and I wouldn't want to base a buying decision on this scenario. Thus, my conservative guess to be on the safe side.

Since we seem to agree that this is a refitted kris without established provenance my main point is to concentrate on the blade and its quality: IMHO a few decades older or younger won't effect the collectors value as much as the quality of the blade. If an etch were to reveal nice pattern-welding, I would gladly pay a "late 19thC price" even for an 20thC blade. If I really like the blade, I may even obtain it regardless of any "resale value" considerations. Been there, done that...

Regards,
Kai