South Arabian Saif

ariel · 15th February 2007, 10:33 PM

A new arrival. Typical South Arabian (Yemeni??) Saif with a Caucasian shashka blade. In the second half of the 19th century, Daghestan/Chechnya exported their blades far and wide and those became very popular in Arabia. One can still see the "Gurda" mark on the blade.

ariel · 15th February 2007, 11:03 PM

And, BTW, here is Omani Kattara with a Caucasian Shashka blade.
As per Elgood, the staraight Kattara blades were locally manufactured, but the curved ones were Caucasian. Interesting whether it was the influence of the Murid Wars? Quite a lot of Circassians were exiled and the Ottomans settled some in the Arabia proper. Later Chechens went there, and Shamil himself was allowed by the Russians ( who, surprisingly, were exceedingly gracious to him) to settle in Mecca where he eventually died

A.alnakkas · 26th December 2012, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

A new arrival. Typical South Arabian (Yemeni??) Saif with a Caucasian shashka blade. In the second half of the 19th century, Daghestan/Chechnya exported their blades far and wide and those became very popular in Arabia. One can still see the "Gurda" mark on the blade.

Shame this post didnt get picked up. ARISE MY MINION!

Like these, I have one and hope to understand them more. They have a very Indian feeling to them... made for Yemenis maybe.

Jim McDougall · 27th December 2012, 12:10 AM

Thanks for waking this one up Lofty!
This is a very interesting sabre, and as you have noted Elgood, he describes these hilts as well as the trilobate 'karabela' style as often being produced in Hyderabad, India for export to Hadhramaut. These Indian hilts were characteristically repousse silverwork, but perhaps with the proclivity for cast yellow metal in South India, this might be indeed another 'Indian' product.
These blades, again as noted by Elgood, seem often imported out of Daghestani and Chechen regions and with distinct East European instances as well. It seems that many blades thought to be Hungarian were likely Solingen or Styrian products. Whatever the case, they seem mid to latter 18th century, and the hatchet type point favored for East European cavalry sabres. The 'sickle' marks became the 'gurda' in Caucasian parlance.

These distinctly Yemeni hilts seem to have a compelling similarity to the triple projections on the 'billao' short swords found in Somalia, and it is of course tempting to consider that the influence may have come from these type swords on Omani vessels bound for Zanzibar and trade stops there.
(attached image of billao)

Note also the very stubby, almost vestigial crossguard, which is seen on many Arabian saif forms, and to me has always brought to mind another Caucasian form, rare, but still possible to have influenced swords via trade and Circassian influences.. the Tatar 'ordynka'.

The diaspora of Circassians and others after the Murid Wars brought up by Ariel is indeed an intriguing denominator in the diffusion of weapons and other cultural elements. I recall there was a fascinating book by Lewis Stanton Palen in 1925, "The Lost Sword of Shamyl". It has been years since seeing my copy, but it seems that the shashka of Imam Shamyl, the Murid warrior chieftain (at least one of them) was somehow last seen in the Chicago area, but dont recall much more.

All best regards,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th December 2012, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks for waking this one up Lofty!
This is a very interesting sabre, and as you have noted Elgood, he describes these hilts as well as the trilobate 'karabela' style as often being produced in Hyderabad, India for export to Hadhramaut. These Indian hilts were characteristically repousse silverwork, but perhaps with the proclivity for cast yellow metal in South India, this might be indeed another 'Indian' product.
These blades, again as noted by Elgood, seem often imported out of Daghestani and Chechen regions and with distinct East European instances as well. It seems that many blades thought to be Hungarian were likely Solingen or Styrian products. Whatever the case, they seem mid to latter 18th century, and the hatchet type point favored for East European cavalry sabres. The 'sickle' marks became the 'gurda' in Caucasian parlance.

These distinctly Yemeni hilts seem to have a compelling similarity to the triple projections on the 'billao' short swords found in Somalia, and it is of course tempting to consider that the influence may have come from these type swords on Omani vessels bound for Zanzibar and trade stops there.
(attached image of billao)

Note also the very stubby, almost vestigial crossguard, which is seen on many Arabian saif forms, and to me has always brought to mind another Caucasian form, rare, but still possible to have influenced swords via trade and Circassian influences.. the Tatar 'ordynka'.

The diaspora of Circassians and others after the Murid Wars brought up by Ariel is indeed an intriguing denominator in the diffusion of weapons and other cultural elements. I recall there was a fascinating book by Lewis Stanton Palen in 1925, "The Lost Sword of Shamyl". It has been years since seeing my copy, but it seems that the shashka of Imam Shamyl, the Murid warrior chieftain (at least one of them) was somehow last seen in the Chicago area, but dont recall much more.

All best regards,
Jim

Salaams Jim, Absolutely brilliant Jim; Your link with the monumental Somali hilts is superbly put. My reckoning is that these blades migrated down and around the Red Sea region fusing designs from both shores. Buttins page refers to the various hilt designs on the Zanzibari Nimcha and the Somali design is apparent on several marks. Giving the timeline a shuffle I suspect that the 1744 date of the Al Bu Said dynasty start is pivottal to the design of the long handled Omani straight (Sayf) dancing sword and that the hilt simply transferred to the curved Kattara soon after that. I would say between 1744 and 1760 the curved Omani Kattara emerged. I therefor plumb for 1750.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th February 2014, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim, Absolutely brilliant Jim; Your link with the monumental Somali hilts is superbly put. My reckoning is that these blades migrated down and around the Red Sea region fusing designs from both shores. Buttins page refers to the various hilt designs on the Zanzibari Nimcha and the Somali design is apparent on several marks. Giving the timeline a shuffle I suspect that the 1744 date of the Al Bu Said dynasty start is pivottal to the design of the long handled Omani straight (Sayf) dancing sword and that the hilt simply transferred to the curved Kattara soon after that. I would say between 1744 and 1760 the curved Omani Kattara emerged. I therefor plumb for 1750.

Salaams all Note to Library..Sweeping through the library...Correction..!! I think the real transfer of hilt technology went the other way ie... from Slave captain/traders curved kattara to straight Omani Sayf(dancer). The dancing sword invented at the start of the current dynasty in 1744 or shortly after.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

napoleon · 20th February 2014, 11:33 PM

love the saif ,is the handle bronze or low grade silver mixture?

ariel · 22nd February 2014, 02:39 AM

Bronze or brass: often they are virtually the same composition-wise.

spiral · 22nd February 2014, 06:05 PM

Looks like brass to me, bronze is redder/browner.

spiral

15th February 2007, 10:33 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	South Arabian Saif A new arrival. Typical South Arabian (Yemeni??) Saif with a Caucasian shashka blade. In the second half of the 19th century, Daghestan/Chechnya exported their blades far and wide and those became very popular in Arabia. One can still see the "Gurda" mark on the blade. Attached Images

15th February 2007, 11:03 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And, BTW, here is Omani Kattara with a Caucasian Shashka blade. As per Elgood, the staraight Kattara blades were locally manufactured, but the curved ones were Caucasian. Interesting whether it was the influence of the Murid Wars? Quite a lot of Circassians were exiled and the Ottomans settled some in the Arabia proper. Later Chechens went there, and Shamil himself was allowed by the Russians ( who, surprisingly, were exceedingly gracious to him) to settle in Mecca where he eventually died Attached Images

27th December 2012, 12:10 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Thanks for waking this one up Lofty! This is a very interesting sabre, and as you have noted Elgood, he describes these hilts as well as the trilobate 'karabela' style as often being produced in Hyderabad, India for export to Hadhramaut. These Indian hilts were characteristically repousse silverwork, but perhaps with the proclivity for cast yellow metal in South India, this might be indeed another 'Indian' product. These blades, again as noted by Elgood, seem often imported out of Daghestani and Chechen regions and with distinct East European instances as well. It seems that many blades thought to be Hungarian were likely Solingen or Styrian products. Whatever the case, they seem mid to latter 18th century, and the hatchet type point favored for East European cavalry sabres. The 'sickle' marks became the 'gurda' in Caucasian parlance. These distinctly Yemeni hilts seem to have a compelling similarity to the triple projections on the 'billao' short swords found in Somalia, and it is of course tempting to consider that the influence may have come from these type swords on Omani vessels bound for Zanzibar and trade stops there. (attached image of billao) Note also the very stubby, almost vestigial crossguard, which is seen on many Arabian saif forms, and to me has always brought to mind another Caucasian form, rare, but still possible to have influenced swords via trade and Circassian influences.. the Tatar 'ordynka'. The diaspora of Circassians and others after the Murid Wars brought up by Ariel is indeed an intriguing denominator in the diffusion of weapons and other cultural elements. I recall there was a fascinating book by Lewis Stanton Palen in 1925, "The Lost Sword of Shamyl". It has been years since seeing my copy, but it seems that the shashka of Imam Shamyl, the Murid warrior chieftain (at least one of them) was somehow last seen in the Chicago area, but dont recall much more. All best regards, Jim Attached Images

20th February 2014, 11:33 PM	#7
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	love the saif ,is the handle bronze or low grade silver mixture?

22nd February 2014, 02:39 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Bronze or brass: often they are virtually the same composition-wise.

22nd February 2014, 06:05 PM	#9
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Looks like brass to me, bronze is redder/browner. spiral