Odd Oriental knife and brass scabbard -- revisited

Ian · 6th May 2005, 07:14 PM

In the old forum I had posted pictures (below) of an odd knife in a brass scabbard decorated with oriental designs. We never did figure out what it was: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001527.html

A recently completed auction on eBay showed a knife of somewhat similar shape. It indicates a maker from Paris and was described as a "tobacco knife" -- presumably for the harvesting of tobacco or slicing quid. Here is the auction link with pictures: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6174847959

Here are pictures of my mystery knife from the previous thread.

Unknown Oriental Knife

Bill · 6th May 2005, 07:50 PM

seems the blade might cut, & then gather the "sap" from something, like a opium knife

Andrew · 7th May 2005, 02:54 AM

It's a bit large for it, but it reminds me of a betel knife.

Rick · 7th May 2005, 03:12 AM

That the one on eBay might be a version of one of these :
http://store.allstainedglass.com/leadknife.html

Radu Transylvanicus · 7th May 2005, 09:25 PM

Looks Malayan to me, like a variation of a wedong chopper, pretty new also not older than a few decades ... Is that buddhist monk on the tin sheath suppose to make me believe its from more up north ?

Conogre · 8th May 2005, 08:27 AM

I can't help but notice the hilt, which looks distinctly like the Lombok wedungs, while very similar is found in many Philippine knives and swords, particularly on some reground machetes from the insurrection period that were definitley used as weapons as opposed to tools.
The scabbard appears incongrous to the piece, at first glance, yet an Oriental influence also seems to be quite well entrenched on Lombak as well.
I'm hoping that if Artzi is reading he'll post a photo of his "Philippine knife" as well.....this is also brought up under the current thread "two Lombak swords/knives"
Mike

Ian · 8th May 2005, 11:03 PM

Thanks Mike for the Lombok suggestion, and to all the others who responded with thoughts. Still somewhat of a mystery.

One thing I forgot to mention was the appearance of a hardened edge that is quite wide. I have not etched this blade, but simply polishing it seems to show that the edge is different from the rest of the blade.

tom hyle · 9th May 2005, 12:48 AM

The European knives I think it most closely resembles in overall outline are leather working or field-butchering (hunters') knives, but how heavy is this blade? If the sheath were absent I think I'd go PI; note the resemblance to Rick's "Jeep" headed sword? I don't know what to make of the sheath....

Ian · 9th May 2005, 05:36 AM

Tom:

Thickness of the spine at the hilt is about 3/16 inch.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

The European knives I think it most closely resembles in overall outline are leather working or field-butchering (hunters') knives, but how heavy is this blade? If the sheath were absent I think I'd go PI; note the resemblance to Rick's "Jeep" headed sword? I don't know what to make of the sheath....

Bill · 10th May 2005, 05:12 AM

doesn't look to have had been used a lot. India may also be a candidate. Can't find any good pictures of opium knives, maybe someone has a couple to post? here is a link to how a knife like this might have been used. http://www.uwmc.uwc.edu/political_sc...opiumprod.html

Conogre · 10th May 2005, 05:51 AM

The Lombok wedungs that I've seen are all chisel ground...flat on one side, beveled on the other and with a "catch" on one side of the scabbard to prevent them from sliding through a sash, and the photos of yours only show the one side of the scabbard, so are of little help.
The Philippine pieces that I've seen with similar hilts were tapered to a cutting edge evenly on both sides, with even re-ground machetes re-heated so as to have a tempered edge and yet with an uncanny resemblence to the hilts of the Lombok pieces, something that arises time after time between PI and Indonesian bladed weapons and tools, so there doesn't appear to be any clear cut answer.
I don't feel that yours is a Chinese reproduction though, even with the scabbard inscribing.
Could it be possible that this is a northern woman's knife, reminiscent of the Bagobo knives of the south?

Mark · 10th May 2005, 03:44 PM

It looks like a chopping knife (as in mincing and dicing). The round profile would work well for rocking it back and forth on a cutting surface. If it is indeed a tobacco knife, it possibly might have been used to chop up the leaf for smoking a a pipe or home-made cigar. I have a photo from Nat'l Geo somewhere of a women and her daughter chopping up tobacco this way, but the implement was different.

Ian · 10th May 2005, 06:01 PM

Mark:

I think there is an example of the type of knife you had in mind at this URL:
http://www.hvl.bia.edu/GLVM/Don%20Pe...o_bowl_set.htm

It is used to slice and dice tobacco leaves, typically on a wooden board or bowl. I think the example in the link above is used for Native American ceremonies.

-----------------------

Mike:

Thanks for the pictures and ideas. Philippines is one possibility, certainly. And there is a substantial Filipino-Enchin (Chinese) community throughout the Philippines.

The dog head machete that you show looks a lot like the West Indies variety of ornamental machetes that often have carved heads of natives on the pommel, and a wire wrap to the lower part of the grip. If the blade is stamped "Robert Mole & Sons," then I'm sure it is from the West Indies. Sure looks like a Mole blade from its shape and the multiple fullers.

The bottom picture looks like a dog hilt on a Luzon (Philippines) knife.

Thanks again for those ideas -- keep 'em coming!

Ian.

Picture added from web site listed above:

6th May 2005, 07:14 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,204	Odd Oriental knife and brass scabbard -- revisited In the old forum I had posted pictures (below) of an odd knife in a brass scabbard decorated with oriental designs. We never did figure out what it was: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001527.html A recently completed auction on eBay showed a knife of somewhat similar shape. It indicates a maker from Paris and was described as a "tobacco knife" -- presumably for the harvesting of tobacco or slicing quid. Here is the auction link with pictures: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6174847959 Here are pictures of my mystery knife from the previous thread. Unknown Oriental Knife

7th May 2005, 03:12 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	There's A Chance That the one on eBay might be a version of one of these : http://store.allstainedglass.com/leadknife.html

8th May 2005, 08:27 AM	#6
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I can't help but notice the hilt, which looks distinctly like the Lombok wedungs, while very similar is found in many Philippine knives and swords, particularly on some reground machetes from the insurrection period that were definitley used as weapons as opposed to tools. The scabbard appears incongrous to the piece, at first glance, yet an Oriental influence also seems to be quite well entrenched on Lombak as well. I'm hoping that if Artzi is reading he'll post a photo of his "Philippine knife" as well.....this is also brought up under the current thread "two Lombak swords/knives" Mike Attached Images

10th May 2005, 05:51 AM	#11
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	The Lombok wedungs that I've seen are all chisel ground...flat on one side, beveled on the other and with a "catch" on one side of the scabbard to prevent them from sliding through a sash, and the photos of yours only show the one side of the scabbard, so are of little help. The Philippine pieces that I've seen with similar hilts were tapered to a cutting edge evenly on both sides, with even re-ground machetes re-heated so as to have a tempered edge and yet with an uncanny resemblence to the hilts of the Lombok pieces, something that arises time after time between PI and Indonesian bladed weapons and tools, so there doesn't appear to be any clear cut answer. I don't feel that yours is a Chinese reproduction though, even with the scabbard inscribing. Could it be possible that this is a northern woman's knife, reminiscent of the Bagobo knives of the south? Attached Images

10th May 2005, 06:01 PM	#13
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,204	Mark: I think there is an example of the type of knife you had in mind at this URL: http://www.hvl.bia.edu/GLVM/Don%20Pe...o_bowl_set.htm It is used to slice and dice tobacco leaves, typically on a wooden board or bowl. I think the example in the link above is used for Native American ceremonies. ----------------------- Mike: Thanks for the pictures and ideas. Philippines is one possibility, certainly. And there is a substantial Filipino-Enchin (Chinese) community throughout the Philippines. The dog head machete that you show looks a lot like the West Indies variety of ornamental machetes that often have carved heads of natives on the pommel, and a wire wrap to the lower part of the grip. If the blade is stamped "Robert Mole & Sons," then I'm sure it is from the West Indies. Sure looks like a Mole blade from its shape and the multiple fullers. The bottom picture looks like a dog hilt on a Luzon (Philippines) knife. Thanks again for those ideas -- keep 'em coming! Ian. Picture added from web site listed above: Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 10th May 2005 at 06:13 PM. Reason: Added picture

6th May 2005, 07:50 PM	#2
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	seems the blade might cut, & then gather the "sap" from something, like a opium knife

7th May 2005, 02:54 AM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	It's a bit large for it, but it reminds me of a betel knife.

7th May 2005, 09:25 PM	#5
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Looks Malayan to me, like a variation of a wedong chopper, pretty new also not older than a few decades ... Is that buddhist monk on the tin sheath suppose to make me believe its from more up north ?

8th May 2005, 11:03 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,204	Thanks Mike for the Lombok suggestion, and to all the others who responded with thoughts. Still somewhat of a mystery. One thing I forgot to mention was the appearance of a hardened edge that is quite wide. I have not etched this blade, but simply polishing it seems to show that the edge is different from the rest of the blade.

9th May 2005, 12:48 AM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The European knives I think it most closely resembles in overall outline are leather working or field-butchering (hunters') knives, but how heavy is this blade? If the sheath were absent I think I'd go PI; note the resemblance to Rick's "Jeep" headed sword? I don't know what to make of the sheath....

10th May 2005, 05:12 AM	#10
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	doesn't look to have had been used a lot. India may also be a candidate. Can't find any good pictures of opium knives, maybe someone has a couple to post? here is a link to how a knife like this might have been used. http://www.uwmc.uwc.edu/political_sc...opiumprod.html

10th May 2005, 03:44 PM	#12
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	It looks like a chopping knife (as in mincing and dicing). The round profile would work well for rocking it back and forth on a cutting surface. If it is indeed a tobacco knife, it possibly might have been used to chop up the leaf for smoking a a pipe or home-made cigar. I have a photo from Nat'l Geo somewhere of a women and her daughter chopping up tobacco this way, but the implement was different.