Kris identification, luk or not?

erikscollectables · 14th January 2009, 09:58 PM

Who can help me with this kris?

I find it very interesting but do not know why.
Almost sold it once and withdrew it again.
It has been treated quite badly (that is why I wanted to sell it at first..)

It has a ganja iras.
Pamor looks like it might have been raja abela raja?

But the main question is are these luk or not?
Was it a straight kris that has been treated too badly or is this a kris with luk?

Any other ideas about age etc are welcome too of course!

Regards, Erik

Sajen · 14th January 2009, 10:13 PM

Hello Eric, a picture from the complete blade will be helpful, but from what I can see I would call it a 1-luk keris. Pamor maybe ujung gunung or like you think raja abala raja, difficult to say without warangi.
My 2-cent opion.

A. G. Maisey · 14th January 2009, 10:49 PM

We cannot have a one luk keris; lowest count must be three.

You begin the count on the first luk above the gandik and finish the count on the same side of the blade, thus lowest number of luk can only be three.

A full length pic would be of assistance, but from what I can see, this keris looks like dhapur campur bawur --- straight for most of its length, with just three luk close to the point.

Sajen · 15th January 2009, 12:01 AM

I have to be ashamed, Mr. Maisey is correct. I only have to use my head to know that it is not possible to have a one luk blade.

Sorry!

David · 15th January 2009, 01:02 AM

Alan is indeed right, 3 luks it is. Erik, i think you should seek out a source to restain this keris so it's pamor actually reveals itself. You might never sell it then!

karset · 15th January 2009, 04:33 PM

luk 3, can be in damar murub clasification ?,,,

kulbuntet · 16th January 2009, 11:42 PM

im no expert.. but looks like bugis blade... maybe sumatra or sulawesi... because it have upside down V at sorsoran... garuda. I have same on my sulawesi bugis keris

Hope that the pic is clear enough..

erikscollectables · 17th January 2009, 08:48 PM

I think my blade is Javanese, the dress is for sure and the blade has not the "strength" the bugis blades have.

But I do know what you mean: the onion or bawang subungkal I have seen on quite a few bugis blades.

The current condtion of the blade is not good enough for me to establish if it is this or the beginning of a different pamor like raja abela raja that has the same form at the base...

Very nice Bugis keris by the way!

Regards, Erik

Quote:

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

im no expert.. but looks like bugis blade... maybe sumatra or sulawesi... because it have upside down V at sorsoran... garuda. I have same on my sulawesi bugis keris

Hope that the pic is clear enough..

Henk · 18th January 2009, 08:51 AM

Erik,

I think your blade is Javanese. Bawang Subungkal also appear on Javanese keris.

A. G. Maisey · 19th January 2009, 02:49 AM

It is virtually impossible for me to give a supportable opinion in respect of origin of this blade from these photographs, and with the blade out of stain.

However, I will happily give an unsupported opinion of origin:- South Sumatra, Palembang.

Why?

Gonjo iras, pamor.

kulbuntet · 20th January 2009, 12:58 AM

IMO alan is right... and with the knowledge of what you told me about that the blade is not "strong" or thick.. must be sumatra. As fast as me have been told bugis keris from sumatra and sulawesi have one big difrence.. in thicknes.. the sumatra is more flat.. and the sulawesi has got more body. And thks about my bugis! I think it is aswel

to henk.. is the upside down v called Bawang Subungkal??I have seen pamor like it called Raja Kam Kam...but its difrent to mine and i dont know if its from jawa. the pamor i hav eon bugis blade i never have seen it on a keris not from sulawesi or sumatra both bugis style.. can you show me some pics? thks in advance.

David · 20th January 2009, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is virtually impossible for me to give a supportable opinion in respect of origin of this blade from these photographs, and with the blade out of stain.

However, I will happily give an unsupported opinion of origin:- South Sumatra, Palembang.

Why?

Gonjo iras, pamor.

Well now you've done it Alan. You've provided an "unsupported opinion" and then gone on to support it with a reason! Is that allowed?

But seriously, i only ask because i have a Javanese keris that is gonjo with pamor, so i must ask, is it because of this specific pamor? Surely not all gonjo iras blades with pamor are from Palembang.

A. G. Maisey · 20th January 2009, 07:11 AM

Yeah, I know David---but I was feeling wild and reckless at the time.

I'd hardly call two little points of reference enough to support an opinion.

I've seen a few Palembang keris that look pretty much like this one, as always, to be relatively certain you need the thing in stain and in your hand, but when I've seen a number of Palembang keris like this, and never seen a Jawa keris like this, I do feel more or less confidant. Yeah, this pamor is not at all common in Jawa keris, gonjo iras is fairly common in palembang keris. To me it just looks Palembang. If we say "Jawa", then we've got ask "Jawa what?" and I reckon it would be pretty near impossible to put a logical Jawa tangguh on it.

Having said all of that, I'll now say that South Sumatra Jawa style blades are almost impossible to distinguish from asli Jawa blades.

erikscollectables · 20th January 2009, 04:47 PM

Interesting discussion guys, thanks!

14th January 2009, 09:58 PM	#1
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Kris identification, luk or not? Who can help me with this kris? I find it very interesting but do not know why. Almost sold it once and withdrew it again. It has been treated quite badly (that is why I wanted to sell it at first..) It has a ganja iras. Pamor looks like it might have been raja abela raja? But the main question is are these luk or not? Was it a straight kris that has been treated too badly or is this a kris with luk? Any other ideas about age etc are welcome too of course! Regards, Erik Attached Images

20th January 2009, 12:58 AM	#11
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	IMO alan is right... and with the knowledge of what you told me about that the blade is not "strong" or thick.. must be sumatra. As fast as me have been told bugis keris from sumatra and sulawesi have one big difrence.. in thicknes.. the sumatra is more flat.. and the sulawesi has got more body. And thks about my bugis! I think it is aswel to henk.. is the upside down v called Bawang Subungkal??I have seen pamor like it called Raja Kam Kam...but its difrent to mine and i dont know if its from jawa. the pamor i hav eon bugis blade i never have seen it on a keris not from sulawesi or sumatra both bugis style.. can you show me some pics? thks in advance. Last edited by kulbuntet; 20th January 2009 at 01:12 AM.

14th January 2009, 10:13 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Eric, a picture from the complete blade will be helpful, but from what I can see I would call it a 1-luk keris. Pamor maybe ujung gunung or like you think raja abala raja, difficult to say without warangi. My 2-cent opion.

14th January 2009, 10:49 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	We cannot have a one luk keris; lowest count must be three. You begin the count on the first luk above the gandik and finish the count on the same side of the blade, thus lowest number of luk can only be three. A full length pic would be of assistance, but from what I can see, this keris looks like dhapur campur bawur --- straight for most of its length, with just three luk close to the point.

15th January 2009, 12:01 AM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	I have to be ashamed, Mr. Maisey is correct. I only have to use my head to know that it is not possible to have a one luk blade. Sorry!

15th January 2009, 01:02 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Alan is indeed right, 3 luks it is. Erik, i think you should seek out a source to restain this keris so it's pamor actually reveals itself. You might never sell it then!

15th January 2009, 04:33 PM	#6
karset Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 48	luk 3, can be in damar murub clasification ?,,,

16th January 2009, 11:42 PM	#7
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	im no expert.. but looks like bugis blade... maybe sumatra or sulawesi... because it have upside down V at sorsoran... garuda. I have same on my sulawesi bugis keris Hope that the pic is clear enough..

18th January 2009, 08:51 AM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Erik, I think your blade is Javanese. Bawang Subungkal also appear on Javanese keris.

19th January 2009, 02:49 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	It is virtually impossible for me to give a supportable opinion in respect of origin of this blade from these photographs, and with the blade out of stain. However, I will happily give an unsupported opinion of origin:- South Sumatra, Palembang. Why? Gonjo iras, pamor.

20th January 2009, 07:11 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Yeah, I know David---but I was feeling wild and reckless at the time. I'd hardly call two little points of reference enough to support an opinion. I've seen a few Palembang keris that look pretty much like this one, as always, to be relatively certain you need the thing in stain and in your hand, but when I've seen a number of Palembang keris like this, and never seen a Jawa keris like this, I do feel more or less confidant. Yeah, this pamor is not at all common in Jawa keris, gonjo iras is fairly common in palembang keris. To me it just looks Palembang. If we say "Jawa", then we've got ask "Jawa what?" and I reckon it would be pretty near impossible to put a logical Jawa tangguh on it. Having said all of that, I'll now say that South Sumatra Jawa style blades are almost impossible to distinguish from asli Jawa blades.

20th January 2009, 04:47 PM	#14
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Interesting discussion guys, thanks!