Bedouin Sword for Discussion

[kahnjar1]

Just received this lovely old tribal Bedouin sword. European blade which no marks, and scabbard with ORIGINAL leather covering, with some very minor loss. The drag is shrunk on and is what looks to be green goat skin, with most of the hair still there. Makes a VERY sturdy drag as it is extremely hard. Reverse side of scabbard shows the lacing used to secure the leather.
The hilt is an obvious Nimcha copy, and has a very large "Zanzibari type" ring guard.
What do we think Gentlemen?

[Iliad]

Just junk. Send it to me and I will dispose of it for you.I do this out of the kindness of my heart.
Brian

[TVV]

Are we 100% sure that those crude hilts with ringed crossguards are Bedouin, and not say, a Yemeni interpretation of the Zanzibari guard for example? Has someone with local knowledge been able to confirm the Bedouin attribution?
Regards,
Teodor

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams TVV..Good point. These are very common in souks in Sanaa, Sharjah and Muscat etc etc ..where they ship out with the unsuspecting tourist market. It is known that they are recent rehilts "matched" in those centres. The hilts are commonly mass produced or at least knocked out in large numbers in Sanaa using crude copied designs and slapped on any blade that comes to hand. Occasionally and more by accident than design a hilt gets matched on a reasonable European blade...but that is more by pure chance. These are tourist swords I'm sorry to say.

I will pass by and see if there are any in the Buraimi souk...there's normally a few. My advice is to avoid these.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Atlantia]

Hi Stu,

Great looking sword.
Looks like a real fighter! Love the broad wide blade.
Any marks on the blade? Can we see some close-ups of the fullers?

[kahnjar1]

Perhaps if these are as common as you say, you could provide some pics of them actually in the Souks.
This is NOT a tourist piece, unlike some of the Replicas/Rebuilds coming out of Oman. This piece is too old and very functional.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams TVV..Good point. These are very common in souks in Sanaa, Sharjah and Muscat etc etc ..where they ship out with the unsuspecting tourist market. It is known that they are recent rehilts "matched" in those centres. The hilts are commonly mass produced or at least knocked out in large numbers in Sanaa using crude copied designs and slapped on any blade that comes to hand. Occasionally and more by accident than design a hilt gets matched on a reasonable European blade...but that is more by pure chance. These are tourist swords I'm sorry to say.

I will pass by and see if there are any in the Buraimi souk...there's normally a few. My advice is to avoid these.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Perhaps if these are as common as you say, you could provide some pics of them actually in the Souks.
This is NOT a tourist piece, unlike some of the Replicas/Rebuilds coming out of Oman. This piece is too old and very functional.

Yes of course in a few minutes... the souks are awash with them...on the other hand I wouldnt want to make a presentation which could be misconstrued as commercially biased since that could hurt the sensibilities of certain individuals... not that I would do that..of course. That is not to discourage people going to the souk... its great fun and full of weird stuff; some real, some not. I find it irresistable and reccommend it to all visitors.

Anyway these fakes...they sometimes have a good blade.. its just pot luck...

Its just what sells..The tourists scoop them up all over the place. I can show scores of them all stacked up in the souk in Mutrah and I know theres a load in Sharjah they haul in box loads from India and Yemen. I saw bundles of Tulwar in Sharjah the other day...same situation with those...they look alright but they aren't. Theres a complete back street industry been knocking these out for tourists for donkeys years in Sanaa and India etc.

Im just off to Buraimi Souk theres some over there. I know the shop owner ... I will ask him where he gets them. He is Yemeni... so I guess... Sanaa? Thats where Muscat gets their bulk of junk. There aren't (well maybe about 3 a month) any tourists in Yemen so swords are pouring out ~exporting to surrounding souks. I just rang up the Muscat boys and when they could stop laughing they said its just "bread and butter"...they sell loads of them... they are in the right price range to be carted off by tourists off cruise ships who often dont even ask if they are genuine..

I imagine they also exist in just about every souk from here to Morocco, Egypt, Yemen UAE and in India etc... serious buyers beware. The proper Nimchas are a cut above these.

I shall include later an article in the "Souks of Oman" thread on how to spot fakes.

They are souvenirs for tourists.


Photo.
( See below Yemeni sword put up for tourists to buy...typefied by a not bad looking blade(new) Picture taken by me tonight at about 9pm. 31 Dec 2012. Buraimi Souk. According to the store owner who is Yemeni ~Hilt knocked up in a backyard workshop in Sanaa, Scabbard made to order..same souk. Same applies to Mutrah and other souks in that traders in this case from the Habaabi region in Saudia adjacent Yemen and offloaded this. Apparently these weapons can be further aged by being dropped in car battery acid and then buried in the ground. The same can be done to scabbards..Looks like it came out of a similar workshop to the project sword at #1.)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

You seem to have a good knowledge of fakes, but then I suppose that is to be expected.
Anyway its "each to their own", and if you want to call this item a fake, then go ahead.
At least there is some "politeness" used in describing other fakes posted on this Forum.......

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Yes of course in a few minutes... the souks are awash with them...on the other hand I wouldnt want to make a presentation which could be misconstrued as commercially biased since that could hurt the sensibilities of certain individuals... not that I would do that..of course. That is not to discourage people going to the souk... its great fun and full of weird stuff; some real, some not. I find it irresistable and reccommend it to all visitors.

Anyway these fakes...they sometimes have a good blade.. its just pot luck...

Its just what sells..The tourists scoop them up all over the place. I can show scores of them all stacked up in the souk in Mutrah and I know theres a load in Sharjah they haul in box loads from India and Yemen. I saw bundles of Tulwar in Sharjah the other day...same situation with those...they look alright but they aren't. Theres a complete back street industry been knocking these out for tourists for donkeys years in Sanaa and India etc.

Im just off to Buraimi Souk theres some over there. I know the shop owner ... I will ask him where he gets them. He is Yemeni... so I guess... Sanaa? Thats where Muscat gets their bulk of junk. There aren't (well maybe about 3 a month) any tourists in Yemen so swords are pouring out ~exporting to surrounding souks. I just rang up the Muscat boys and when they could stop laughing they said its just "bread and butter"...they sell loads of them... they are in the right price range to be carted off by tourists off cruise ships who often dont even ask if they are genuine..

I imagine they also exist in just about every souk from here to Morocco, Egypt, Yemen UAE and in India etc... serious buyers beware. The proper Nimchas are a cut above these.

I shall include later an article in the "Souks of Oman" thread on how to spot fakes.

They are souvenirs for tourists.


Photo.
( See below Yemeni sword put up for tourists to buy...typefied by a not bad looking blade(new) Picture taken by me tonight at about 9pm. 31 Dec 2012. Buraimi Souk. According to the store owner who is Yemeni ~Hilt knocked up in a backyard workshop in Sanaa, Scabbard made to order..same souk. Same applies to Mutrah and other souks in that traders in this case from the Habaabi region in Saudia adjacent Yemen and offloaded this. Apparently these weapons can be further aged by being dropped in car battery acid and then buried in the ground. The same can be done to scabbards..Looks like it came out of a similar workshop to the project sword at #1.)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[TVV]

I understand and share your disappointment, but ultimately find it better to accept the facts. And in the case of these swords with varying blades and crude hilts imitating the hilts of seifs from Zanzibar, the facts point to a modern production, likely coming from Yemen and not intended for battle, but for the souvenir trade.

If it is of any consolation, I am the (not so) proud owner of one of these, except it is in much worse shape than yours:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8997

You can see some more examples in this old thread about the souks in Riyadh:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3974

I am not sure that I would go as far as to label these swords "fakes", since the word "fake" implies an intent to deceive, and these are so crude that it seems unlikely that anyone is really trying to pass them off as authentic 19th century examples. These swords seem to be produced to satisfy a certain demand, rather than to deceive collectors like you and me: we just happened to make a mistake due to insufficient knowledge of the local souks. The blade on yours looks quite nice and is probably antique. It may have even been used within the culture in a different dress before.

I also do not feel that Ibrahim's post's intent was to offend: as someone who has the benefit of exposure to all the modern sword production in the area, he is uniquely qialified to educate us on it. I may not agree with him on absolutely everything, but I appreciate his local perspective and the knowledge he brings, and in this case, I feel that unfortunately he is correct.

Regards,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Very well put Teodor, and I very much agree. I personally am not in favor of the 'fake' term despite the fact that there are certainly obvious cases that deserve that description, however sometimes it may be inadvertantly used. I think Ibrahiim does well in helping us become more aware of the variations and types of weapons offered in many of the circumstances he has experienced, and it is not easy to be explicit or candid in explaining these things without sounding harsh. Sometimes the poor standards present in commercial traffic in many examples can be frustrating, especially for those of us working to study the history of weapons forms, and that can sometimes creep into comments.

Actually these ringed hilts do appear to be Yemeni versions or at least seem believed to be from Zanzibar from around the 1960s from one I acquired and information from its source. Some earlier research notes these from Zanzibar (Cavalierre; Jacob) and Buttin considers the examples he shows (1933) as 17th-18th century, so the form seems quite old.Actually these rings were a feature seen on Italian sword forms from 16th century which influenced others as more complex guards developed.

While many of these, as noted, have substantial blades and likely were for actual use, it does seem that the more current markets are indeed producing examples more to satisfy souvenier demands (as seen by the examples Ibrahiim has posted with poorly defined fullers).

I think the Bedouin classification is pretty broadly used, and certainly could refer to any of the tribal groups over most of the Peninsula and other areas.
I have always felt that many of these weapons were intended for actual tribal wear/use but with the knowledge that they would be sold as required to tourists or others. Some with clearly inadequate blades would be the exception.

[kahnjar1]

Thanks Jim, and a Happy New Year.
I am not, as Teodor suggests disappointed, as I posted this for COMMENT, good or bad. As you have stated Jim, the term "Bedouin" is indeed used to cover a large area, and perhaps I should more correctly have used term "Arabian". As to the age, the scabbard at least is not new, and is much older than the one in the pic posted by Ibrahiim. I have no doubt that the hilt is a "backyard" piece, but the blade, which may be new or old, is certainly functional as a fighting piece. Even if this piece is from around the 1960s as you suggest, it is still approaching 60 years old now. Not a new made item as are being turned out to catch the unwary, and, I should add, at absolutely rediculous prices.
Stu

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Very well put Teodor, and I very much agree. I personally am not in favor of the 'fake' term despite the fact that there are certainly obvious cases that deserve that description, however sometimes it may be inadvertantly used. I think Ibrahiim does well in helping us become more aware of the variations and types of weapons offered in many of the circumstances he has experienced, and it is not easy to be explicit or candid in explaining these things without sounding harsh. Sometimes the poor standards present in commercial traffic in many examples can be frustrating, especially for those of us working to study the history of weapons forms, and that can sometimes creep into comments.

Actually these ringed hilts do appear to be Yemeni versions or at least seem believed to be from Zanzibar from around the 1960s from one I acquired and information from its source. Some earlier research notes these from Zanzibar (Cavalierre; Jacob) and Buttin considers the examples he shows (1933) as 17th-18th century, so the form seems quite old.Actually these rings were a feature seen on Italian sword forms from 16th century which influenced others as more complex guards developed.

While many of these, as noted, have substantial blades and likely were for actual use, it does seem that the more current markets are indeed producing examples more to satisfy souvenier demands (as seen by the examples Ibrahiim has posted with poorly defined fullers).

I think the Bedouin classification is pretty broadly used, and certainly could refer to any of the tribal groups over most of the Peninsula and other areas.
I have always felt that many of these weapons were intended for actual tribal wear/use but with the knowledge that they would be sold as required to tourists or others. Some with clearly inadequate blades would be the exception.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Stu, and happy new year to you as well,
I think this does look functional also, and it seems to me the goatskin and character of the scabbard would suggest it would be from some remote tribal use rather than made for sale in souks specifically. That is structly presumption on my part as I have never travelled to these places, and I am going mostly on information picked up through the years from others who have been in them.

As I mentioned I picked up one of these years ago which I was told had been among a good number of similar ones in Yemen, and that they had been used or for use during the civil war going on there in the 1960s. While it seems bizarre that swords would be still in use, it must be remembered that even then in remote regions, tribesmen still wore sabres. Many examples could certainly have been ersatz pieces cobbled together by less than skilled persons. This kind of fabrication has been seen in so many cases in times of strife, and these kinds of pieces are truly hard to identify and substantiate.
To me it seems that weapons made for tourist consumption and commercial stock would be a bit more consistant in the components and somewhat better assembled. On the other hand, as Ibrahiim notes, perhaps these industrious souk suppliers know this and deliberately fabricate random like composites.
The best proof is in the actual handling and the feel of the weapon. It is almost impossible to guage this factor from pictures.

All the best,
Jim

[kahnjar1]

Thanks Jim. I agree that the goatskin is unlikely to have been used in tourist pieces. The entire scabbard here is definitely OLD and not of modern making. The leather is very thin and brittle, and the goat skin is uncured (green) and shrunk on. It is VERY hard. I am prepared to accept that the hilt is likely more recent, but the blade could be old or more recent....hard to be sure but of good quality either way. There are no marks.
As far as this piece being a "user", the weight is "blade down" when held in the hand, and balance appears very good....not what I would have expected in a tourist piece.
Stu

[Atlantia]

Stu,

What's the blade like on yours? Is it sharp? What's the steel like?
The blade on Ibrahiims example looks completely flat with simple fullers, almost like a long machete blade.
Now that's not to say that the machete isn't a formidable weapon! Hell, it was probobly the most widely used 'sword' in Africa in the 20thC!
Although they are clearly the same type, Ibrahiims looks new and yours looks to have some age.

I have to say that as a tourist souvenir these would seem on the face of it to be somewhat impractical.
Often an item made to attract the eye of the traveller is 'pretty' on the outside with a blade that ranges from 'just usable' to completely unusable and purely decorative.
Your sword seems to flip this trend.
I can't see these being popular with todays travellers.
If they wanted a souvenir then surely the veritable flood of Jambiya, Khanjar and genuinely 'decorative' (and attractive) daggers that are being pushed by every street trader would be the obvious and preferred choice?

Just my thoughts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ALL ~ It appears that these blades arrive into Oman with hilts in this fashion bought as bulk purchase then sorted for either immediate sale to tourists or for re hilting on long Omani hilts as Kattara styles and then on for the souks tourists and all. The choice as to which blade get what treatment seems totally random.

As to how old they are is an interesting question as some appear new whilst others have been acid dropped and or buried...or both. It is extremely difficult to deduce the age on these blades. Knowing what is going on, however, helps the collector to make a qualified decision. In Oman there is real antiquity mixed unashamedly with stuff of dubious birth certification but thats part of the fun at the fair. Tourists on the other hand are very succeptible to being slightly taken in ....but nicely. Same the world over.

We took one Yemeni Nimcha apart recently in the workshop and one simple tap with the hammer disintegrated the entire hilt. On the other hand when the tang is extended and an Omani Long Hilt is applied with pommel the unit is strong. Alternatively the falcon head shaped (and often leather covered hilt) is substituted for the low grade Yemeni one retaining the quite useful blade. What is perhaps more to the point is that this shortish curved blade with an Omani Long Hilt is much more comfortable to wear simply stuffed under a sash or simple belt and worn in the badge of office role ...not as weapons... something I suspect may have also happened in the Bedouin sense since these variants with the flimsy made hilts would fall apart at the first contact... if, in fact, they ever saw service with Bedouin at all.

My theory is that in 1948 through 1952 the Jewish artesans largely vanished from Yemen and with their demise, in terms of effect upon the local quality of work, weapons of a lesser quality emerged. There are scores if not hundreds in Mutrah. Estimating the total weight of these weapons sold in Mutrah may extend into the THOUSANDS!!

[B]This is quite important actually since it is the solution, or part of it, to the supply of Kattara blades "of this nature" into Oman. However, if you ask me how many Omanis now buy these short curved swords/converted nimchas on Omani long hilts, irrespective of the age of the blades (and some are old~ 100, 150 years) I would have to say...none. I think the time has passed when Omani men carried this style of weapon and it has slipped away into history...though I still see the odd old gentleman wearing them and I have never seen an Omani with the rough Yemeni hilt...never.

Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 #25 #47 #88 #154 #241(this is an Ethiopian ~German Blade which had a tang extension and pommel done) and #325 (first photo) where blades imported variously and many Yemeni poorly done hilts are reconstructed with Falcon Heads and Omani Longs ~ for the tourist market.

As a late added note to this post I should add that it is worth looking beyond the Yemen delivery date of these swords and in discovering that these blades many of which are quite bona fide steels often from Europe via Africa and a lot which were properly hilted found there way onto proper swords around the region. I assume that there are great stocks of these in storerooms in Sanaa but I have no evidence except in calculating the numbers pumped through Mutrah...and that is never easy. For sure items get the antique treatment and leather and hide are easy to confuse by burying while blades look 200 years older after the acid trick...In conclusion its always a good idea to look around to see whats being done and if the trend indicates there are lots of items like this being floated as original battle swords of the Bedouin you can bet they aren't. Then verbally having beaten the truth out of the seller that they may be Yemeni you just have to search a little deeper and ask yourself the question ...why are they here?


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[TribalBlades]

I personally believe there is no such thing as a Bedouin Sword (except the Omani / Yemeni Kattara and the Saif). Bedu hardly used Swords for warfare. It is mostly used for dancing. They almost always relied on Rifles and Guns. (except perhaps swords that date from before the arrival of the british and other colonizing forces).

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by TribalBlades

I personally believe there is no such thing as a Bedouin Sword (except the Omani / Yemeni Kattara and the Saif). Bedu hardly used Swords for warfare. They almost always relied on Rifles and Guns. (except perhaps swords that date from before the arrival of the british and other colonizing forces).

aaaand thats wrong :-) the saif is well used by bedouin communities (well not as much as spears..) but they are there and there are particular styles but one thing noticed is that they rarely make any blades and most of the fittings are actually done in cities. This has to do with the bedouin tradition and mentality which looks upon physical work as some sort of insult.

As for the sword with Stu. I originally owned this one and there are honest sign of wear on the fittings of the blade. Things that are very difficult (and pointless to make) to do so it doesnt seem right that these were made to sell to tourists. The blade is nice, thick and I remember it was sharpened. The blade was thicker then any of my wootz shamshirs and was alittle less thick then a European blade on a nimcha (which I sold along with this one) so its a serious blade and the mounts were holding strong on it. The wood of the scabbard had signs of wear near the throat so is the leather there. as you can see, the bronze (?) lines on the top of the scabbard have losses that are done due to loss with time I doubt people selling to tourist will have so much interest in details or a need to actually do such damage.

Stuff made for tourists generally contain lots of 'flash' and go for the cheapest and quickest material available and rarely have signs of wear. Keep in mind that the said Yemenis who supposedly produce these are also producing the jambiyas we see in the tourist market, how many do you see which are deliberately made to look older? rarely if ever done purposefully.

Ibrahim is correct on one thing which I ignored as a variation before, while I find some of these with the one similar to Stu's I also find ones with slim blades and scabbards that look very new. One of the interesting things about those is that they are often precieved as ugly and rarely ever sell to anyone so am not sure how they classify as tourist items.

included are photos of the saif pre restoration.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by TribalBlades

I personally believe there is no such thing as a Bedouin Sword (except the Omani / Yemeni Kattara and the Saif). Bedu hardly used Swords for warfare. It is mostly used for dancing. They almost always relied on Rifles and Guns. (except perhaps swords that date from before the arrival of the british and other colonizing forces).

Salaams Tribal Blades.. Im afraid thats not the case ~ I understand the sentiment since you must have seen the state of what the Bedouin are now like with 4 wheel drives galore and seemingly not much antiquity left at all...but they did carry swords and they used them on occasions on raids and fights. No doubt they were also a badge of office too...as as you say for pageants, weddings and dancing.. but as you intimate swords fell out of fashion as rifles fell in. I have a record of sword battles circa 1900 in the what is now UAE... and there are lots of pictures of Bedouin with swords.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Tribal Blades.. Im afraid thats not the case ~ I understand the sentiment since you must have seen the state of what the Bedouin are now like with 4 wheel drives galore and seemingly not much antiquity left at all...but they did carry swords and they used them on occasions on raids and fights. No doubt they were also a badge of office too...as as you say for pageants, weddings and dancing.. but as you intimate swords fell out of fashion as rifles fell in. I have a record of sword battles circa 1900 in the what is now UAE... and there are lots of pictures of Bedouin with swords.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Here is one such example in use that Artzi shared some time back.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14012

Many others are available with a google image search.

In 1935 Richard Halliburton mentions curved swords drawn when talking of Ibn Saud and his "four scarlet-uniformed black Giants" at the tents entrance.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Here is one such example in use that Artzi shared some time back.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14012

Many others are available with a google image search.

In 1935 Richard Halliburton mentions curved swords drawn when talking of Ibn Saud and his "four scarlet-uniformed black Giants" at the tents entrance.

Gavin

Salaams freebooter ~ Yes great picture...Must say is that other reference the famous Burton or the lesser known Halliburton or the even less well known Hali-walli-Burton?

I need to try and get an angle on the precise dates of the appearance of the swords at # 1 ~ I assume they appeared post 1948 but began turning up in Muscat main souk (Mutrah) after 1970. I have a few swords with hilts in the basic leather over wood arrangement which were reformatted from this type in Mutrah see pictures below..which turned up in similar garb to the project sword at #1. It would be easy to assume that these are swashbuckling dhow weapons or used by the Omani Bedouin... as they look authentic. Who knows maybe they did use these or something similar?

However sharp and handy these swords appear to be I believe we need to cut a swathe through the myths as they appear. I did it with the straight dancing swords and I will do it with others as they front up.
Its a real shame that Yemen is closed to a visit or else I would go down and bang on the door of a few Sanaa merchants and get some pictures.

Pictures show two blades, the wider with a very meaty feel, European, inscribed at the throat with the sword in tunic arm/hand and the other probably local Arabian, both imported from Yemen, disassembled and remounted on falcon head Omani styles and described as Dhow swords... and given fresh Omani scabbards.

"Tongue in cheek" springs to mind...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Salam Ibrahim,

Its interesting to know that saifs such as Stu's have been dismounted and refitted as 'Omani falcon head' the blades are certainly real enough to deserve. A remount but I am interested in this supposed Omani falcon head style as I only saw them coming out of your workshop. At first I thought them to be Yemeni karabelas with their hilts covered perhaps to attract Omani buyers and to give them an Omani feel but perhaps you can tell us more about them.

[kahnjar1]

I agree with Lofty. These have appeared on Ibrahiims website, and in fact are still listed for sale there. Just a further attempt at ill covered commercialism?? How much longer do we have to put up with this when others are struck off for less?

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim,

Its interesting to know that saifs such as Stu's have been dismounted and refitted as 'Omani falcon head' the blades are certainly real enough to deserve. A remount but I am interested in this supposed Omani falcon head style as I only saw them coming out of your workshop. At first I thought them to be Yemeni karabelas with their hilts covered perhaps to attract Omani buyers and to give them an Omani feel but perhaps you can tell us more about them.

[A.alnakkas]

The blade on one of Ibrahim's 'karabelas' have one that looks identical to the ardha blades made recently in Saudi Arabia. The armoured figure is almost identical (imitation of clauberg) I have done some research on these and had one before:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14020

The blade is generally slim but can be thick. The shallow 3 fullers are identical but it seems that Ibrahim's karabela is aged to look old. These are not touristy but made for ardha dance in alTaif :-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

The blade on one of Ibrahim's 'karabelas' have one that looks identical to the ardha blades made recently in Saudi Arabia. The armoured figure is almost identical (imitation of clauberg) I have done some research on these and had one before:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14020

The blade is generally slim but can be thick. The shallow 3 fullers are identical but it seems that Ibrahim's karabela is aged to look old. These are not touristy but made for ardha dance in alTaif :-)

Salaams A.alnakkas Yes to your previous post; it certainly is interesting. I personally don't make Falcon head hilts though I do have a few in stock. I like them. ...Falcon head or Hawkshead in fact, it was a term I think first coined by me to describe both the falcon head style emanating more likely in Turkish/Hungarian swords(Karabela) entering the Red Sea regions and what I thought were the derived more simple wooden hilts covered in leather made in centres like Mussandam and Muscat. The style almost lends itself to a ships cutlass type of weapon though I now think that may be more myth than fact. I like to attribute the Zanzibari Nimcha to that role.

The other long hilted slavers Kattara was certainly a weapon carried by the Omani slave captains and merchants and indeed VIPs.

I think a realisation needs to be applied to the phenomena of swords at #1 since people may be confused. The blades may indeed be real (I believe they are) What appears to have happenend is that enterprising souk merchants have cottoned on to the abundant supplies of blades which poured into Africa and Red Sea regions of Arabia and have matched every form of hilt and blade purely to move metal. I suggest that one of the pivottal date groups concerning Yemen may be the exodus of Jews period 1948 and into the mid 50s. I think this is the period that spawned the cheap and cheerful hilts seen at #1. The blades in many cases were real enough but had likely no place in any countries historical tradition outside of their European birthplace or peripheral. For this reason we observe Tulvar hilted Ethiopian (German) blades, Omani long hilted Nimcha conversions of the # 1 type blade and the straight down the line attempt to sell the cheap Yemeni hilted European short blades in all the souks previously mentioned. Upon this note it is purely the way the souks handle bulk shipments; some go direct to the shopfronts others go direct to workshops for remodelling ~ either way these blades end up going over the counter as tourist items here in the Omani souks. As you know the shopsellers in souks who are perhaps not too well educated may well answer tourist querries with a statement that he thinks that is what the tourist wants to hear~ Its not exactly a lie ... but its not exactly the truth either.... and tourists dont half ask some stupid questions!! Bless them all !!

I can see how up the Red Sea they may be used on proper hilts for Razha / sword dances but that is reserved here normally for the Omani dancing Sayf though in the UAE I've seen long curved blades used too.

One can hardly blame the old souk merchants, after all, for how many years have the international sword community been hoodwinked by their own nostalgia over swords of this type?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by TVV

I understand and share your disappointment, but ultimately find it better to accept the facts. And in the case of these swords with varying blades and crude hilts imitating the hilts of seifs from Zanzibar, the facts point to a modern production, likely coming from Yemen and not intended for battle, but for the souvenir trade.

If it is of any consolation, I am the (not so) proud owner of one of these, except it is in much worse shape than yours:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8997

You can see some more examples in this old thread about the souks in Riyadh:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3974

I am not sure that I would go as far as to label these swords "fakes", since the word "fake" implies an intent to deceive, and these are so crude that it seems unlikely that anyone is really trying to pass them off as authentic 19th century examples. These swords seem to be produced to satisfy a certain demand, rather than to deceive collectors like you and me: we just happened to make a mistake due to insufficient knowledge of the local souks. The blade on yours looks quite nice and is probably antique. It may have even been used within the culture in a different dress before.

I also do not feel that Ibrahim's post's intent was to offend: as someone who has the benefit of exposure to all the modern sword production in the area, he is uniquely qialified to educate us on it. I may not agree with him on absolutely everything, but I appreciate his local perspective and the knowledge he brings, and in this case, I feel that unfortunately he is correct.

Regards,
Teodor

Salaams TVV...Your curved sword looks like a "Luckhouse and Gunter" imported German blade for the Ethiopian market configured typically with two full length florally decorated fullers and throat stamps etc. Could well have simply slipped onto the bulk blades market and re hilted for the souks; Saudia or Yemen.

With an Ethiopian hilt it would be superb...and correct.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Since the original subject of this thread has now well and truely been hijacked, and we now appear to be discussing an entirely different subject I might as well "join the party".
If one bothers to PROPERLY read the linked thread about the Ethiopian bladed Saif, it clearly states that the blade is marked with the letters M K.
A little research reveals that these stand for M.KEVORKOFF & CO who were importers based in Harrar, Ethiopia. Absolutely nothing to do with Luckhouse & Gunter...... (actual spelling is LUCKHAUS & GUNTHER)
Blades for Ethiopia were made in their thousands by Solingen makers but also Wilkinson of London and exported unmounted.
It is reasonable to assume that many of these found their way into the hands of various Tribes and were mounted by them in their own style.
The idea that these were rehilted for the Souks is ridiculous, as anyone with a small amount of knowledge of the history of Arabia will know that at the time these were imported, the then Colonial Powers were all vying for allegence from the various Arab Tribes, and there was continual fighting going on.
In fact Saudia did not even exist at that time, only coming into existance in the 1930s, and it was not until after WW 2 that Arabia was "opened up" and the first "tourists" started to arrive in any numbers.
So lets try to be a little realistic and accept that not every "different" sword was intended for the Souks!!

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams TVV...Your curved sword looks like a "Luckhouse and Gunter" imported German blade for the Ethiopian market configured typically with two full length florally decorated fullers and throat stamps etc. Could well have simply slipped onto the bulk blades market and re hilted for the souks; Saudia or Yemen.

With an Ethiopian hilt it would be superb...and correct.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by Iliad

Just junk. Send it to me and I will dispose of it for you.I do this out of the kindness of my heart.
Brian

Does this ploy ever work? I must remember it!

PS: love the sword!

[DaveA]

Thank you Ibrahiim al Balooshi. I know your time is valuable so I am thankful every time you post your well documented wisdom on this forum.

With so many artificially-aged items in the market to beguile the innocent novice collector, may I suggest to the moderators that it may be time to create or update a sticky thread with information such as Ibrahiim has posted?

I dearly hope the following says something like 'Happy New Year"!

سنة جديدة سعيدة


Best regards,

David

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by DaveA

Does this ploy ever work? I must remember it!

PS: love the sword!

No it does not. I know Brian personally and his sense of humour!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Since the original subject of this thread has now well and truely been hijacked, and we now appear to be discussing an entirely different subject I might as well "join the party".
If one bothers to PROPERLY read the linked thread about the Ethiopian bladed Saif, it clearly states that the blade is marked with the letters M K.
A little research reveals that these stand for M.KEVORKOFF & CO who were importers based in Harrar, Ethiopia. Absolutely nothing to do with Luckhouse & Gunter...... (actual spelling is LUCKHAUS & GUNTHER)
Blades for Ethiopia were made in their thousands by Solingen makers but also Wilkinson of London and exported unmounted.
It is reasonable to assume that many of these found their way into the hands of various Tribes and were mounted by them in their own style.
The idea that these were rehilted for the Souks is ridiculous, as anyone with a small amount of knowledge of the history of Arabia will know that at the time these were imported, the then Colonial Powers were all vying for allegence from the various Arab Tribes, and there was continual fighting going on.
In fact Saudia did not even exist at that time, only coming into existance in the 1930s, and it was not until after WW 2 that Arabia was "opened up" and the first "tourists" started to arrive in any numbers.
So lets try to be a little realistic and accept that not every "different" sword was intended for the Souks!!

Salaams ...Not quite...I believe MK were the importers of such blades and the insignia denotes where the blade was made ie Luckhause and Gunther factory..Anyway the fact is that those blades are acceptable in Ethiopia.
Of the rest you are probably confused but my advice is to observe firstly the most updated information on Swords and Omani Artefacts which is from the Richardson and Dorr manual ... the classic chapter and verse on Omani antiquity. You are miles out on your guestimate about these Yemani swords as they are pure slight of hand straight down the line tourist items which is a pity as the majority of blades arent at all bad. You should therefor envisage what blades are acceptable in which countries on which hilts...Tourism in Oman was non existant in Oman before 1970. In Oman there is no way these Yemeni/Saudia knock ups are acceptable...eccept as I say as tourist items. I cant be fairer than that.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.