MORO Kris

Dajak · 16th February 2008, 09:15 AM

Hi like to now how old this one is.

Ben

Tim Simmons · 16th February 2008, 10:23 AM

One could be mistaken thinking that this is a Kaskara blade forge welded into a Kris hilt.

Dajak · 16th February 2008, 12:01 PM

Hi Time I never see an blade like that on an moro kris like that

It was taken from North Borneo in 1910

Ben

Flavio · 16th February 2008, 02:34 PM

Hi Ben! I'm with Tim, seems a kaskara-tokuba blade with the two half-moons on the blade. Also the fullers seem tipical of these kind of blades!

Rick · 16th February 2008, 04:36 PM

Scarf welded blade possibly ?
Can you show a closer picture of the area where the fullers begin ?

David · 16th February 2008, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Hi Ben! I'm with Tim, seems a kaskara-tokuba blade with the two half-moons on the blade. Also the fullers seem tipical of these kind of blades!

...and where exactly would the weld point be where this "kaskara" blade would be joined to the obviously Moro base of this sword.

I do agree that the fullers do give it the look of a kaskara blade, but i am fairly sure that this kris is all Moro. I have seen other Moro kris with fullers before (see pg. 71 in Cato), though this is certainly a more unusual configuration.
Ben, as you know, age is always a trick thing to determine. Since you seem to have some provenance at least you know that it is at least from before 1910. I would think that this style of kris could easily extend back through a good part of the 19th century. Dimensions might be helpful, as older kris tended to be a bit small AFAIK, but i'm not sure you can determine a definitive age from that either. Does it have a sheath? That won't prove it's age for sure either (sheaths can be easily changed), but it might add some clues.
Regardless, nice kris.

Rick · 16th February 2008, 04:51 PM

Hi David, there is discoloration above where the fullers start ; could be indicative of a scarf weld .

Tim Simmons · 16th February 2008, 05:00 PM

Fascinating. In certain views there does appear to be two metals here. Even if this is so it I do not think it is done to deceive, or cobbled together to fool. Perhaps the trade of these blades is extensive. They are very good quality. A short length mounted expertly in this Moro? manner would be a very good heavy sword indeed.

?

Flavio · 16th February 2008, 05:47 PM

Maybe an etch could help... if the blade is laminated it's for sure all Moro

Dajak · 16th February 2008, 06:22 PM

Hi thanks for the comments

The blade is 24 inch and laminated all over 29 inch

Here are some close up pics

I like to now the age because it looks older than 100 years

and what are the sign s means that is on it .

but I don t now much about Moro kris so I like to learn .

Ben

Tim Simmons · 16th February 2008, 06:38 PM

These blades were supplied to East Africa in The latter half of the 19th century so I see no reason why this is not from that time. When you think about it there were trade routes to the east. Also many parts of SE Asia the area we are talking about, may have depended on trade blades. We have seen European trade parang blades in Africa recently. Some communities may not be particularly wealthy so making a sword this way makes sense. Perhaps using an old hilt saves expense, perhaps only having to commission the local smith only to make the hilt means a cheap quallity sword. The handle does reflect a cheap functional nature.

Dajak · 16th February 2008, 06:56 PM

It looks they used Rhino horn

Ben

Tim Simmons · 16th February 2008, 07:04 PM

Some jungle people might have more access to Rhino horn at times, but may not always have a good supply of trade commodities, the handle fitted latter at home after the blade was made?

How many smith would be in the Forrest interior?

First catch your Rhino, I have heard that the SE Asian Rhino is rather elusive.

Dajak · 16th February 2008, 07:56 PM

Interesting that the blade make an long way

Ben

kai · 16th February 2008, 08:44 PM

Hello Ben,

Nice to see more pics of this kris!

From the features at the base of the blade, I'd suggest that the blade is 19th century, possibly the latter half but probably predating the Spanish-American war. It seems to be clearly Sulu style (including northern Borneo) although it's longer than most blades from that region/date. Also the scabbard looks well-used and genuinely antique.

The pommel could be also very well be of Sulu manufacture but the wire wrap doesn't look like Moro work. However, it seems to fit well with non-Moro tribes from Borneo - is it known from which tribe or region this piece was collected?

I think it would be very enlightening to polish and etch this blade. Considering the good condition of the blade, this can be done with minimal loss of material (contact me if you don't want to do it yourself). If a Kaskara blade was welded to the base/gangya, this will surely show!

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 16th February 2008, 09:30 PM

I agree with Kai. I also think that the wrap was done later than the blade. I wonder if this was a European blade with the shape and those moons (even though the crescent moon is an Islamic symbol). I have seen one or two Moro kris with European trade blades before.

Rhino horn - not common on Moro stuff but I suppose anything is possible.

Tim Simmons · 16th February 2008, 09:46 PM

If this is not a classic thread then I have no idea what could be. I hope Ben does etch the blade. How many blades have you seen with the demarcation, one from the other like this?

Dajak · 17th February 2008, 09:38 AM

Hi Kai when I have more time I will visit you

Etching the blade is fine I have an other one too

Ben

kai · 17th February 2008, 10:10 PM

Hello Ben,

Quote:

Hi Kai when I have more time I will visit you
Etching the blade is fine I have an other one too

Only one? You must have at least half a dozen kris by now...

Yup, that twistcore also needs an etch - don't forget to also bring your bronze pommel piece and that Dayak-cloth kris! (As well as a little time to get things done...

)

Regards,
Kai

Tim Simmons · 18th February 2008, 07:23 AM

It might at first sound a little far fetched but could these European/ German? blades we call Kaskara appear in the Malay and Borneo region as a consequence of the Napoleonic French interest in the region. I only thought of this as I have a Batak sword with the long unfullered 1795-1815 dragoon sabre blade. Napoleon installed a Dutch governor in Bali. The British keen to stop any further French influence may have been supplying a great amount of blades.

Dajak · 18th February 2008, 04:58 PM

Hi Tim I was also maild by an member who did say it is an german blade
so this could be right

Ben

Rick · 21st February 2008, 12:17 AM

Just bumping this to the top .

Has the kris been etched yet ?

This piece, if it incorporates a European trade blade, would be the first real fusion example that I have ever seen in Moro krisses .

Jose, Kai, Michael et al, have you ever encountered a hybrid kris such as this one?

16th February 2008, 09:15 AM	#1
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	MORO Kris Hi like to now how old this one is. Ben Attached Images

16th February 2008, 10:23 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Strange looking? One could be mistaken thinking that this is a Kaskara blade forge welded into a Kris hilt.

16th February 2008, 06:22 PM	#10
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi thanks for the comments The blade is 24 inch and laminated all over 29 inch Here are some close up pics I like to now the age because it looks older than 100 years and what are the sign s means that is on it . but I don t now much about Moro kris so I like to learn . Ben Attached Images

16th February 2008, 12:01 PM	#3
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Time I never see an blade like that on an moro kris like that It was taken from North Borneo in 1910 Ben

16th February 2008, 02:34 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Ben! I'm with Tim, seems a kaskara-tokuba blade with the two half-moons on the blade. Also the fullers seem tipical of these kind of blades!

16th February 2008, 04:36 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Scarf welded blade possibly ? Can you show a closer picture of the area where the fullers begin ?

16th February 2008, 04:51 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Hi David, there is discoloration above where the fullers start ; could be indicative of a scarf weld .

16th February 2008, 05:00 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Fascinating. In certain views there does appear to be two metals here. Even if this is so it I do not think it is done to deceive, or cobbled together to fool. Perhaps the trade of these blades is extensive. They are very good quality. A short length mounted expertly in this Moro? manner would be a very good heavy sword indeed. ?

16th February 2008, 05:47 PM	#9
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Maybe an etch could help... if the blade is laminated it's for sure all Moro

16th February 2008, 06:38 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	These blades were supplied to East Africa in The latter half of the 19th century so I see no reason why this is not from that time. When you think about it there were trade routes to the east. Also many parts of SE Asia the area we are talking about, may have depended on trade blades. We have seen European trade parang blades in Africa recently. Some communities may not be particularly wealthy so making a sword this way makes sense. Perhaps using an old hilt saves expense, perhaps only having to commission the local smith only to make the hilt means a cheap quallity sword. The handle does reflect a cheap functional nature.

16th February 2008, 06:56 PM	#12
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	It looks they used Rhino horn Ben

16th February 2008, 07:04 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Some jungle people might have more access to Rhino horn at times, but may not always have a good supply of trade commodities, the handle fitted latter at home after the blade was made? How many smith would be in the Forrest interior? First catch your Rhino, I have heard that the SE Asian Rhino is rather elusive.

16th February 2008, 07:56 PM	#14
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Interesting that the blade make an long way Ben

16th February 2008, 08:44 PM	#15
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Ben, Nice to see more pics of this kris! From the features at the base of the blade, I'd suggest that the blade is 19th century, possibly the latter half but probably predating the Spanish-American war. It seems to be clearly Sulu style (including northern Borneo) although it's longer than most blades from that region/date. Also the scabbard looks well-used and genuinely antique. The pommel could be also very well be of Sulu manufacture but the wire wrap doesn't look like Moro work. However, it seems to fit well with non-Moro tribes from Borneo - is it known from which tribe or region this piece was collected? I think it would be very enlightening to polish and etch this blade. Considering the good condition of the blade, this can be done with minimal loss of material (contact me if you don't want to do it yourself). If a Kaskara blade was welded to the base/gangya, this will surely show! Regards, Kai

16th February 2008, 09:30 PM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	I agree with Kai. I also think that the wrap was done later than the blade. I wonder if this was a European blade with the shape and those moons (even though the crescent moon is an Islamic symbol). I have seen one or two Moro kris with European trade blades before. Rhino horn - not common on Moro stuff but I suppose anything is possible.

16th February 2008, 09:46 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	If this is not a classic thread then I have no idea what could be. I hope Ben does etch the blade. How many blades have you seen with the demarcation, one from the other like this?

17th February 2008, 09:38 AM	#18
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Kai when I have more time I will visit you Etching the blade is fine I have an other one too Ben

18th February 2008, 07:23 AM	#20
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	It might at first sound a little far fetched but could these European/ German? blades we call Kaskara appear in the Malay and Borneo region as a consequence of the Napoleonic French interest in the region. I only thought of this as I have a Batak sword with the long unfullered 1795-1815 dragoon sabre blade. Napoleon installed a Dutch governor in Bali. The British keen to stop any further French influence may have been supplying a great amount of blades.

18th February 2008, 04:58 PM	#21
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Tim I was also maild by an member who did say it is an german blade so this could be right Ben

21st February 2008, 12:17 AM	#22
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Just bumping this to the top . Has the kris been etched yet ? This piece, if it incorporates a European trade blade, would be the first real fusion example that I have ever seen in Moro krisses . Jose, Kai, Michael et al, have you ever encountered a hybrid kris such as this one?