Flintlock for ID

kahnjar1 · 14th January 2018, 02:19 AM

Can anyone please help with ID of this flintlock? It bears an early EIC mark and there is also a date which unfortunately is unreadable. It looks like ??57 but I can not be sure.
Any leads appreciated.
Stu

Kubur · 14th January 2018, 10:31 AM

Hi Stu,
This one is easy it's is the East Indian company, English, earlier than the Lion's stamp.
Found on many Djezails rifles.
Best,
Kubur

Pukka Bundook · 14th January 2018, 03:50 PM

With no inspection or acceptance marks,(That I can see) and the cock and frizzen being a bit "off", and the tumbler not being an EIC type, I think it was maybe re-built on the sub-continent or altogether locally made.
The date also sounds a bit ominous, as it isn't a 1757 lock, and in 1857 the EIC was using percussion arms and had been for some time.
Also 1857 was the year of the Mutiny....
Sorry if this sounds a bit unwelcome!

The first photo shows the style of lock marking used until 1804. The date was apparently not engraved on the lock before 1775.
Between 1804 and 1807 the heart and date appeared in the centre of the lock and the maker's name across the tail.

Second picture;

This photo shows the style of lock marking used between 1808 and 1818. There are several different lion stamps in evidence, some being rather crude and cartoon-like.

Third photo,
Here are the markings on a Baker Pattern lock 1819 to 1839. This late production example has the date code C for 1839. This lock also features the "bun nut" securing the cock to the tumbler.

rickystl · 14th January 2018, 06:29 PM

Hi Stu

Unfortunately, this is a locally made lock. Likely Afghan made from a combination of surplus parts and locally made parts. The attempt at the EIC designation and date on the tail are both spurios. Curiously, the sear, sear spring, tumbler and plate look like it came from some type of European lock. But the hammer, frizzen, pan, and lockplate all look like local construction. Note the tapered width of the frizzen was never seen on European locks of any that I know of. But it does copy the frizzens seen on South Indian pistols.

Wish I had better news. However, if this lock came from an Afghan Jazail, it would make perfect sense.

Rick

kahnjar1 · 14th January 2018, 08:02 PM

Hi Richard and Rick,
With reference to the date, I did say that it is well worn and VERY hard to decipher. The ??57 is a pure guess from what I can see.
Yes this lock IS from a Jezail but the locally made locks that I have seen are generally not of the (better) quality of this one. This one has screw fittings rather than the peened over pegs of other locks.
Apart from comments about the lock itself I was hoping that someone could give a date range that this PARTICULAR "heart" striking was used.
Stu

Pukka Bundook · 14th January 2018, 08:55 PM

Stu,

The EIC always used a "Quartered Heart."

This one being a local copy could have been made between early 18 o00s and yesterday.

The lock "guts" although not EIC look good and the lock should work well enough if you wanted.

Very best,
Richard.

rickystl · 14th January 2018, 08:58 PM

Hi Stu

Well, here are a couple pics of locks on two of my Jazails. One is a Barnett pattern, the other a Wilson pattern. Notice the hearts and names on different locations on the lockplates. Note the quality of the engravings/stampings.
As to when, where, etc. the different hearts ID's were used and the locations on the lockplates, you almost need Harding's book to find out. I hope another Forum member might have the reference material to give you a better idea.
But if the mark is spurios, it could have simply been crudely copied at most any point in time. And was so common on these guns.

Rick

kahnjar1 · 15th January 2018, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Stu,

The EIC always used a "Quartered Heart."

This one being a local copy could have been made between early 18 o00s and yesterday.

The lock "guts" although not EIC look good and the lock should work well enough if you wanted.

Very best,
Richard.

Hi Richard,
Sorry to disagree, but they did not always use what you describe as a "quartered heart". The style on my lock (whether it is genuine or a copy) is the same as that shown on Ricks lock dated 1805. The quartered version came later according to the small amount of reference I can find.
The lock itself actually sparks well, and the gun it came from has been used as a shooter in the recent past.
Stu

Pukka Bundook · 15th January 2018, 08:46 PM

You are quite right, Stu.

My mistake!

Richard.

14th January 2018, 02:19 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Flintlock for ID Can anyone please help with ID of this flintlock? It bears an early EIC mark and there is also a date which unfortunately is unreadable. It looks like ??57 but I can not be sure. Any leads appreciated. Stu Attached Images

14th January 2018, 03:50 PM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	With no inspection or acceptance marks,(That I can see) and the cock and frizzen being a bit "off", and the tumbler not being an EIC type, I think it was maybe re-built on the sub-continent or altogether locally made. The date also sounds a bit ominous, as it isn't a 1757 lock, and in 1857 the EIC was using percussion arms and had been for some time. Also 1857 was the year of the Mutiny.... Sorry if this sounds a bit unwelcome! The first photo shows the style of lock marking used until 1804. The date was apparently not engraved on the lock before 1775. Between 1804 and 1807 the heart and date appeared in the centre of the lock and the maker's name across the tail. Second picture; This photo shows the style of lock marking used between 1808 and 1818. There are several different lion stamps in evidence, some being rather crude and cartoon-like. Third photo, Here are the markings on a Baker Pattern lock 1819 to 1839. This late production example has the date code C for 1839. This lock also features the "bun nut" securing the cock to the tumbler. Attached Images Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 14th January 2018 at 04:04 PM.

14th January 2018, 08:58 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Stu Well, here are a couple pics of locks on two of my Jazails. One is a Barnett pattern, the other a Wilson pattern. Notice the hearts and names on different locations on the lockplates. Note the quality of the engravings/stampings. As to when, where, etc. the different hearts ID's were used and the locations on the lockplates, you almost need Harding's book to find out. I hope another Forum member might have the reference material to give you a better idea. But if the mark is spurios, it could have simply been crudely copied at most any point in time. And was so common on these guns. Rick Attached Images

14th January 2018, 10:31 AM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Stu, This one is easy it's is the East Indian company, English, earlier than the Lion's stamp. Found on many Djezails rifles. Best, Kubur

14th January 2018, 06:29 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Stu Unfortunately, this is a locally made lock. Likely Afghan made from a combination of surplus parts and locally made parts. The attempt at the EIC designation and date on the tail are both spurios. Curiously, the sear, sear spring, tumbler and plate look like it came from some type of European lock. But the hammer, frizzen, pan, and lockplate all look like local construction. Note the tapered width of the frizzen was never seen on European locks of any that I know of. But it does copy the frizzens seen on South Indian pistols. Wish I had better news. However, if this lock came from an Afghan Jazail, it would make perfect sense. Rick

14th January 2018, 08:02 PM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Richard and Rick, With reference to the date, I did say that it is well worn and VERY hard to decipher. The ??57 is a pure guess from what I can see. Yes this lock IS from a Jezail but the locally made locks that I have seen are generally not of the (better) quality of this one. This one has screw fittings rather than the peened over pegs of other locks. Apart from comments about the lock itself I was hoping that someone could give a date range that this PARTICULAR "heart" striking was used. Stu

14th January 2018, 08:55 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Stu, The EIC always used a "Quartered Heart." This one being a local copy could have been made between early 18 o00s and yesterday. The lock "guts" although not EIC look good and the lock should work well enough if you wanted. Very best, Richard.

15th January 2018, 08:46 PM	#9
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	You are quite right, Stu. My mistake! Richard.