The Size of the Keris

A. G. Maisey · 6th April 2016, 12:04 AM

In this thread:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21265

Jean presented a small keris for comment, and several comments were made , it was decided that it was probably correct to call it a keris patrem, and that keris patrem were usually accepted as keris that were intended to be worn by women.

I believe that all this is true, however, when I reflect on this idea of the size of a keris I find that although we might be accustomed to thinking of Javanese keris as being of a certain size, Balinese of being of another size, keris from outside the keris heartlands as being of another size, in fact, there is a great deal of variation in keris size.

Similarly, there may be many reasons as to the why and where of keris size.

Bugis style keris can sometimes be quite short.

Apart from the seldom seen Javanese keris panjang, some Javanese keris are very big.

Balinese keris, particularly older ones, are often quite small.

Comments and personal experience of this variation in keris size would be most welcome

Jean · 6th April 2016, 03:34 PM

Hello Alan,
I attach my contribution with 3 unusually sized krisses:
. A typical large kris from Cirebon or the pesisir (blade lenght 47.5 cm).
. A relatively small balinese kris (blade lenght 36.5 cm, it has typical balinese features, however it may have been forged in Java or Madura).
. A small Minangkabau kris (blade lenght 22 cm). These krisses are often attributed to women but I saw several pics of such krisses worn by Minangkabau grooms.
Best regards

David · 6th April 2016, 04:21 PM

My shortest Bali keris is about 12.5 inches (31.75 cm). I am fairly certain this blade is of Bali origin. It also seems to be a fairly old blade. While this is certainly not short enough to qualify as a patrem by Javanese standards it is quite short for what we have come to know in Balinese keris. I doubt, however, that this keris was created for either a woman or a child. It is dressed in a full size painted Bali sheath that could accommodate a blade of much larger size, i image so that it can be worn in the traditional manner of Bali up the back with the hilt rising above the shoulder.

Jean · 6th April 2016, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

My shortest Bali keris is about 12.5 inches (31.75 cm). I am fairly certain this blade is of Bali origin. It also seems to be a fairly old blade. While this is certainly not short enough to qualify as a patrem by Javanese standards it is quite short for what we have come to know in Balinese keris. I doubt, however, that this keris was created for either a woman or a child. It is dressed in a full size painted Bali sheath that could accommodate a blade of much larger size, i image so that it can be worn in the traditional manner of Bali up the back with the hilt rising above the shoulder.

Hi David,
Could we see this blade please? Otherwise we won't trust you that it is Balinese...

This subject of the origin of the short Bali/ Lombok blades (I mean less than about 15 inches), whether they are Javanese/ Madurese or not, in old Mahapahit style, etc., is a very difficult and interesting one. I have several such blades which I am unable to properly qualify.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 7th April 2016, 12:08 AM

Thanks for your comments Jean and David.

Yes, North Coast Jawa/Tuban keris were often pretty "super-size", and Balinese keris, especially old ones, were frequently the size of Javanese keris, or even smaller.

The photo I've posted is of a display in the Den Pasar Museum. You can see a couple of Bali keris of the size that we think of when we think of Bali keris, and another very much smaller keris.

The smallest Bali keris I have is 17.5" (445mm.) overall, and with an 8.4" (212mm.) blade. 5 luk., it is definitely Balinese and definitely old, I estimate probably pre-1800.

I do have a number of other Balinese keris that are about the size of Javanese keris, and I have a few big Tuban keris.

I used to have two Balinese keris that were only about 8" to 10" overall.

So, I think we've established that there can be wide variation in keris size.

But does anybody have any suggestions as to why this variation in size may have occurred?

David · 7th April 2016, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But does anybody have any suggestions as to why this variation in size may have occurred?

This is a good question Alan. With my example it does not seem to be intended for either a woman or a child. The dress, which as you can see, is also old (though probably not as old as the blade ) is full size Bali dress, made large so that the keris can be worn in the tradition manner of Bali. I doubt this dress would have been made for either a woman or a boy.
I suppose that an area that could be explored is one of iron sources or scarcity. Is it possible that at certain times in certain places the availability of good iron was less than at other times when larger blades were made?
Of course this doesn't really approach the issue of larger Javanese keris such as North Coast Tuban blades. Obviously there was no iron shortage at that time and for some reason the tastes at that time and that place were for a larger blade style. Were the Tubans trying to compensate for something?

Jean · 7th April 2016, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But does anybody have any suggestions as to why this variation in size may have occurred?

Hello Alan,
A very difficult question but few suggestions:
. Small amulet krisses worn by dukuns for convenience.
. Patrem krisses worn by women or children.
. Large warrior krisses.
. Worn-out and re-used krisses like this one.
Regards

David · 7th April 2016, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hi David,
Could we see this blade please? Otherwise we won't trust you that it is Balinese...

This subject of the origin of the short Bali/ Lombok blades (I mean less than about 15 inches), whether they are Javanese/ Madurese or not, in old Mahapahit style, etc., is a very difficult and interesting one. I have several such blades which I am unable to properly qualify.
Regards

My deepest regrets Jean, but i am afraid you're just going to have to trust me on this one.

The vast majority of my keris blades i choose not to post in public forums on as a matter of principle. While that sometimes causes me a twinge of guilt when others are so free with their postings, it is still my personal stance on the matter and not one i wish to change at this point. Whenever i have broken this rule i have always had regrets on that decision afterwards. So my humble apologies.
I can show you one image that shows the top of the blade in the sheath, but i am not sure it will satisfy your curiosity. However you might be able to at least see that it is not the meaty Bali keris we are most used to.
If this blade was not made in Bali it is probably from Lombok. It does not look like anything i have ever seen from Jawa or Madura and has clear Balinese indicators.

Jean · 7th April 2016, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

My deepest regrets Jean, but i am afraid you're just going to have to trust me on this one.

The vast majority of my keris blades i choose not to post in public forums on as a matter of principle. While that sometimes causes me a twinge of guilt when others are so free with their postings, it is still my personal stance on the matter and not one i wish to change at this point. Whenever i have broken this rule i have always had regrets on that decision afterwards. So my humble apologies.
I can show you one image that shows the top of the blade in the sheath, but i am not sure it will satisfy your curiosity. However you might be able to at least see that it is not the meaty Bali keris we are most used to.
If this blade was not made in Bali it is probably from Lombok. It does not look like anything i have ever seen from Jawa or Madura and has clear Balinese indicators.

Hi David,
Thank you for your picture and it tells quite a lot actually.

Regards

Roland_M · 11th April 2016, 03:51 PM

Hello Alan,

~ 8" or 21 cm is no short blade compared to a modern army dagger, which is not longer than 6-7" (Fairbairn–Sykes fighting knife).

One reason could be, that a short 8" Keris is very much faster together with more control in a duel, than a long Keris with a 15" blade.

Every blade with a blade length of more than 3.2" (~8cm) is potentially deadly, long enough to penetrate the heart or throat.

Roland

David · 11th April 2016, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hello Alan,

~ 8" or 21 cm is no short blade compared to a modern army dagger, which is not longer than 6-7" (Fairbairn–Sykes fighting knife).

One reason could be, that a short 8" Keris is very much faster together with more control in a duel, than a long Keris with a 15" blade.

Every blade with a blade length of more than 3.2" (~8cm) is potentially deadly, long enough to penetrate the heart or throat.

Roland

Roland, i don't believe that you will find that the fighting styles used in modern military martial practices are all that comparable to the martial styles used when fighting with keris. A keris isn't used in the same manner as a Fairbairn–Sykes fighting knife.
Then, of course, there is the obvious fact that very few keris, relatively speaking, of any area are anywhere near the short size of 8". Even in the Bugis culture, which is generally acknowledged as being most likely to have used the keris in actual combat, keris most often measure up to at least 12" (30.48cm). The fact that you can potentially kill someone with a blade only 8cm long seems to have very little bearing on this question.

Gustav · 12th April 2016, 12:01 AM

Alan, I am not able to give any further information about the sources. Many apologies for that, but I am sure you can understand the circumstances - you have been in similar situations before.

I assure, it isn't a flight of fancy, but I absolutely don't want to insist on something, as I am not a teacher.

A. G. Maisey · 12th April 2016, 01:20 AM

Thank you for your response Gustav.

I have no doubt that what you wrote in respect of keris length in Jawa having important symbolism is something that because of its extremely reliable source, you believe absolutely.

I also understand very well that some people who supply us with information are reluctant to permit us to pass that information to third parties, thus your inability to reveal the source of your knowledge is well understood.

However, before I comment further on this matter, I would request your indulgence in a small clarification.

Your exact words were:-

"Alan, I can assure you, that in the land of Java the symbolism of length of Keris was an important factor, at least since the beginning of 19. cent."

And I understood these words to be in response to my own comment, which was:-

"Hierarchical position through the keris is shown in much more subtle ways in Jawa than by the rather obvious symbolism of size."

Thus, I understood your comment to mean the following:-

since the year 1800, and for some time thereafter, in the geographic location that is regarded by the Javanese people as the Land of Jawa, as distinct from the Island of Jawa, the length of a keris blade could be symbolically understood as indicating the hierarchical position in either the society at large, or possibly only within the confines of the courts, as indicative of the hierarchical position of the wearer.

Specifically, that a longer keris blade co-related to a higher hierarchical position within the society, or a segment of the society.

So Gustav, can you confirm that my understanding of your comment is correct?

If my understanding is not correct, would you be so kind as to amend this understanding?

Thank you so much.

A. G. Maisey · 12th April 2016, 02:09 AM

Thank you for your comment Roland.

David has commented that the mode of use of a keris, and of a modern defence force dagger is completely different, and I agree with this, however, the philosophy of use in both the FS dagger and the Javanese keris is virtually the same:- the opponent should be dead before he even realises that he is in danger.

I have deliberately specified the Javanese keris, and the FS dagger, because the mode of use of these two weapons is something that I understand well.

The use of the keris in places other than Jawa can be governed by different philosophies, and the use of defence force daggers can vary from nation to nation and conflict to conflict. I do not have a thorough knowledge of the ways in which keris were used in every society where they existed, nor do I have a thorough knowledge of defence force daggers in all countries.

Although the keris in Jawa should ideally be used in a surreptitious manner, on those occasions where this was not possible, the available evidence indicates that it was used in a manner similar to the way in which a rapier was used. However, although the keris in Jawa may have been used in some circumstances, in a similar way to the rapier, there was no system of fence taught for its use.

Actually, dependent upon circumstances, blade length is not particularly important in ensuring the demise of an opponent.

I once sat through a training video of an actual event that occurred in the USA. A highway patrol officer stopped a vehicle to question the driver. The driver did not wish to be questioned so he slashed the officer's throat with the short blade of a Swiss Army Knife. The short blade of a SA knife is about 1.5 inches long. The officer died.

Blade width is not all that important either. Prior to WWII most women in Australia would not leave the house without wearing a hat. These hats were kept in place with hat pins, which were very thin, sharply pointed steel pins up to 6 inches long. I used to know a woman who was molested by a man whilst travelling by rail, she stabbed him repeatedly with her hat pin. The man died as result of this attack.

Then we have another example from Jawa itself. In Jawa, especially in East Jawa and Madura, cock fighting spurs are a favourite weapon of those people who use sharp pointy things to injure or kill others. These spurs are razor sharp and around 3 or 4 inches long and about 1/4 inch wide, for use as a weapon a piece of cloth is wound around the base and the size permits easy concealment in the hand. A favoured technique is to walk towards the target and slash his or her throat in passing.

Circumstances alter cases.

Roland_M · 12th April 2016, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

The fact that you can potentially kill someone with a blade only 8cm long seems to have very little bearing on this question.

David,

Maybe i have missed the theme. What i tried to say was, that a Keris was never just a symbol of mythology or so.
Keris was mainly a weapon, a very effective and handy weapon, if one knows how to deal with it.

I think, the Keris have probably the highest cutting power of all daggers worldwide, because of the multiple curved shape.
I have one old example with a razor sharp cutting edge and tiny nicks.

In Indonesia they had duels extremely often, even nowadays.
Some users preferred a shorter Keris for duels, because it is an advantage for high skilled users. That is my explanation for the different sizes.

Roland

Gustav · 12th April 2016, 12:19 PM

Alan, it is generally correct. I would replace the "year 1800" with early 1800-ties. The importance of the length of Keris as one of the indicators of hierarchical position was still understood by some people in the 1970-ties.

A. G. Maisey · 12th April 2016, 03:17 PM

Thank you for that clarification Gustav.

You know who my teachers were, and you know that they were placed at the highest level relevant to keris knowledge within the Karaton Surakarta.

Nothing I learnt from those teachers supports the information you have been given.

Similarly nothing in the +60 years of personal study that I have undertaken supports the information you have been given.

This is not to say that your informant(s) advice is incorrect, but I am confident that your informant's advice is not applicable to the Karaton Surakarta, which is the senior royal house of Jawa and in direct line of descent from the Kingdom of Majapahit.

The veracity of this concept of keris length as an indicator of status in Javanese society must be subject to question because of the relevant socio-cultural factors, as I will attempt to clarify below.

The nature of the hierarchical indicators in Javanese society in comparison with Balinese society are different. This difference is based in societal difference, which in turn is based in differing religious orientation.

In Balinese society a man's position in the earthly hierarchy is ultimately dependent upon the hierarchical relationship of a man to the Gods. The basic idea is that the Gods are above mankind, and sit at a higher physical level than does all of mankind, thus the closer one is to the gods, the higher one's position is in an earthly hierarchy.

Naturally, the Gods themselves sit in their own hierarchy, with Siwa at the highest position, however, just because Siwa sits at the highest level this does not mean that he is the ultimate essence of the universe. Siwa and in fact all the Gods are merely manifestations of the One God, Sanghyang Widi Wasa who is the essence that is present in all the Gods, and that permeates everything. This belief is perhaps a bit like the belief encapsulated in the Gospel of Thomas (77), or maybe in the more widely accepted belief in the Christian Holy Spirit.

In Islamic Jawa the Jawa-Hindu hierarchy of Gods above men and some men having a higher universal position than other men was replaced under Islam with the idea that all men are equal before the One God, and that the One God is above all men. The idea of an earthly hierarchy based upon the proximity of a man to the Gods was replaced by a purely earth-bound hierarchy, where the hierarchical position of a man was based upon the proximity of the man to his earthly ruler, but the earthly ruler was no higher than any other man before the One God.

Thus, in Javanese court society, which is the model for other segments of society within the greater sphere of Javanese society, the hierarchical position of a man is indicated by his proximity to the person of recognised senior status within the group. For example, in a group which included the ruler, it would be the ruler who held senior status.

However, hierarchy in Jawa is in most cases situational, thus the person of senior status in one group may not necessarily be the person of senior status in a different group. The overall concept is the "kawula - gusti" principle, the inter-relationship between servant and master, where neither can cross the line that divides but where both must maintain a familial relationship with the other, in fact ideally they merge to form a harmonious whole, which of course reflects the relationship between God and man; Moertono provides an excellent explanation of this concept.

This recognition of hierarchical position being dependent upon the situation, has generated the indication of status being based in a physical relationship that recognises horizontal proximity to the person of senior status rather than upon vertical proximity to the Gods.

The status indicators in Javanese traditional society are based primarily in the mode of dress, where very slight variation that may well go unnoticed by an untrained person will indicate the status of one person relevant to another. This in turn dictates the form of speech, the form of body language, and the mode of behaviour that each person uses in his or her relationship with the other.

Within this overall lexicon of status indicators, the keris can in some circumstances become one of the indicators. In the courts of Jawa this was/is not dependent upon keris size, but rather it is dependent upon keris dress, and sometimes upon the position in which the keris is worn. The well known use of colour in keris dress to indicate status is the obvious example.

In Jawa, the length of the keris is related to two determinants:- the first is the physical size of the man, the second is the size that is calculated as lucky, or correct, for use by that man. This calculation can be carried out in a number of ways, the two best known are by the use of measurement based upon the bearer's fingers, and measurement based upon the use of a randomly chosen palm leaf or length of twine. In Bali similar systems of measurement to determine suitability are also used, and as in Jawa, they have nothing at all to do with status.

In addition to these common determinants mentioned above, a man may choose to determine the length of his keris by use of the services of a dukun, or by meditation, or by dream visitations, or by application of the principles of the Candra Sangkala.

In Javanese traditional society, keris length will only vary by very small amounts, and the actual length will be fixed by one of the methods mentioned above, and only then if the bearer holds a belief that length should be a matter for concern. However, sometimes, especially if a keris is made on specific order by a true Empu, the empu himself will dictate the length based upon either one of the methods mentioned, or by a method that he himself favours.

The reason that perceived keris length cannot vary greatly in Javanese traditional society is based in the fact that the keris when worn must conform to the standard of dress. There is an almost universal standard that applies in each particular court to the perceived size of the keris when it is worn. There is variation in size of dress from court to court, but within each court size is remarkably uniform. Keris length may vary slightly within the set parameters, but that variation cannot be seen when the keris is worn, nor is it symbolic of status.

To summarise the difference between the Balinese hierarchical structure, and the Javanese hierarchical structure, perhaps the easiest way for us to visualise this is to think in terms of the Balinese societal hierarchy being vertical, whilst the Javanese societal hierarchy is horizontal.

Please note:- what I have written is related to Javanese traditional society, and this limits the area under discussion to those parts of Jawa that were/are under the influence of the courts of the heartland.

A. G. Maisey · 12th April 2016, 03:36 PM

Roland, I find your comments in your Post#30 to be interesting, and clearly indicative of the stage your study of the keris has reached.

I do urge you to continue your studies.

David · 12th April 2016, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Maybe i have missed the theme. What i tried to say was, that a Keris was never just a symbol of mythology or so.
Keris was mainly a weapon, a very effective and handy weapon, if one knows how to deal with it.

I think, the Keris have probably the highest cutting power of all daggers worldwide, because of the multiple curved shape.
I have one old example with a razor sharp cutting edge and tiny nicks.

In Indonesia they had duels extremely often, even nowadays.
Some users preferred a shorter Keris for duels, because it is an advantage for high skilled users. That is my explanation for the different sizes.

Roland, while i would not argue that the keris originated as a weapon it certainly has not been mainly a weapon for a very long time. Also, the keris is, for the most part, a stabbing weapon, like a rapier as Alan remarked before. Occasionally you do encounter keris with razor sharp cutting edges, but it is not the normal and keris are not really designed for slashing and cutting in that manner. I don't know who these highly skilled modern keris users are who prefer a shorter keris in duels, but 8 inch keris blades are also the exception, not the rule and keris of this size are generally either patrems, keris selit or purely talismanic, none of which are really intended for battle. The purpose of all these much smaller keris (under 10 inches) have recognized purposes throughout the keris world. Occasionally we may see keris in these dimensions that don't fit into those above categories. However, if blades of 8 inches in length were actually preferred for fighting don't you think we would see a whole lot more of them?

A. G. Maisey · 13th April 2016, 12:44 AM

Actually David, I think that Roland may have given us some very valuable, previously unknown information.

His mention of duels in times past that involved the use of the keris is something I have no knowledge of. In fact, there is no system of fence that was ever taught for the keris, at least in Jawa. The way a keris, or for that matter any weapon is used is to conceal intent until the last moment and then kill the target as quickly and cleanly as possible, before he even knows that he is threatened.

I've seen Indonesian historical soapies where duels proliferate, but that's TV entertainment, not reality.

The mention of duels in the current era is also something unknown to me. For the life of me, I cannot imagine who the protagonists would be. Certainly not any member of the aristocracy, such crude behaviour is something that would see any aristocrat who was involved in it subjected to social exclusion.

In the lower orders of society, especially amongst manual workers and rural workers very savage fights are not uncommon, but the weapon mostly used in those fights is the celurit, simply because it is the weapon that is usually close at hand.

Present day duels with the keris?

Who?

When?

Where?

Yes, previously unknown, and thus valuable information.

6th April 2016, 12:04 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	The Size of the Keris In this thread:- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21265 Jean presented a small keris for comment, and several comments were made , it was decided that it was probably correct to call it a keris patrem, and that keris patrem were usually accepted as keris that were intended to be worn by women. I believe that all this is true, however, when I reflect on this idea of the size of a keris I find that although we might be accustomed to thinking of Javanese keris as being of a certain size, Balinese of being of another size, keris from outside the keris heartlands as being of another size, in fact, there is a great deal of variation in keris size. Similarly, there may be many reasons as to the why and where of keris size. Bugis style keris can sometimes be quite short. Apart from the seldom seen Javanese keris panjang, some Javanese keris are very big. Balinese keris, particularly older ones, are often quite small. Comments and personal experience of this variation in keris size would be most welcome

6th April 2016, 03:34 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, I attach my contribution with 3 unusually sized krisses: . A typical large kris from Cirebon or the pesisir (blade lenght 47.5 cm). . A relatively small balinese kris (blade lenght 36.5 cm, it has typical balinese features, however it may have been forged in Java or Madura). . A small Minangkabau kris (blade lenght 22 cm). These krisses are often attributed to women but I saw several pics of such krisses worn by Minangkabau grooms. Best regards Attached Images

7th April 2016, 12:08 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Thanks for your comments Jean and David. Yes, North Coast Jawa/Tuban keris were often pretty "super-size", and Balinese keris, especially old ones, were frequently the size of Javanese keris, or even smaller. The photo I've posted is of a display in the Den Pasar Museum. You can see a couple of Bali keris of the size that we think of when we think of Bali keris, and another very much smaller keris. The smallest Bali keris I have is 17.5" (445mm.) overall, and with an 8.4" (212mm.) blade. 5 luk., it is definitely Balinese and definitely old, I estimate probably pre-1800. I do have a number of other Balinese keris that are about the size of Javanese keris, and I have a few big Tuban keris. I used to have two Balinese keris that were only about 8" to 10" overall. So, I think we've established that there can be wide variation in keris size. But does anybody have any suggestions as to why this variation in size may have occurred? Attached Images

12th April 2016, 12:01 AM	#12
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Alan, I am not able to give any further information about the sources. Many apologies for that, but I am sure you can understand the circumstances - you have been in similar situations before. I assure, it isn't a flight of fancy, but I absolutely don't want to insist on something, as I am not a teacher. Last edited by Gustav; 12th April 2016 at 12:18 AM.

6th April 2016, 04:21 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	My shortest Bali keris is about 12.5 inches (31.75 cm). I am fairly certain this blade is of Bali origin. It also seems to be a fairly old blade. While this is certainly not short enough to qualify as a patrem by Javanese standards it is quite short for what we have come to know in Balinese keris. I doubt, however, that this keris was created for either a woman or a child. It is dressed in a full size painted Bali sheath that could accommodate a blade of much larger size, i image so that it can be worn in the traditional manner of Bali up the back with the hilt rising above the shoulder.

11th April 2016, 03:51 PM	#10
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Hello Alan, ~ 8" or 21 cm is no short blade compared to a modern army dagger, which is not longer than 6-7" (Fairbairn–Sykes fighting knife). One reason could be, that a short 8" Keris is very much faster together with more control in a duel, than a long Keris with a 15" blade. Every blade with a blade length of more than 3.2" (~8cm) is potentially deadly, long enough to penetrate the heart or throat. Roland

12th April 2016, 01:20 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Thank you for your response Gustav. I have no doubt that what you wrote in respect of keris length in Jawa having important symbolism is something that because of its extremely reliable source, you believe absolutely. I also understand very well that some people who supply us with information are reluctant to permit us to pass that information to third parties, thus your inability to reveal the source of your knowledge is well understood. However, before I comment further on this matter, I would request your indulgence in a small clarification. Your exact words were:- "Alan, I can assure you, that in the land of Java the symbolism of length of Keris was an important factor, at least since the beginning of 19. cent." And I understood these words to be in response to my own comment, which was:- "Hierarchical position through the keris is shown in much more subtle ways in Jawa than by the rather obvious symbolism of size." Thus, I understood your comment to mean the following:- since the year 1800, and for some time thereafter, in the geographic location that is regarded by the Javanese people as the Land of Jawa, as distinct from the Island of Jawa, the length of a keris blade could be symbolically understood as indicating the hierarchical position in either the society at large, or possibly only within the confines of the courts, as indicative of the hierarchical position of the wearer. Specifically, that a longer keris blade co-related to a higher hierarchical position within the society, or a segment of the society. So Gustav, can you confirm that my understanding of your comment is correct? If my understanding is not correct, would you be so kind as to amend this understanding? Thank you so much.

12th April 2016, 02:09 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Thank you for your comment Roland. David has commented that the mode of use of a keris, and of a modern defence force dagger is completely different, and I agree with this, however, the philosophy of use in both the FS dagger and the Javanese keris is virtually the same:- the opponent should be dead before he even realises that he is in danger. I have deliberately specified the Javanese keris, and the FS dagger, because the mode of use of these two weapons is something that I understand well. The use of the keris in places other than Jawa can be governed by different philosophies, and the use of defence force daggers can vary from nation to nation and conflict to conflict. I do not have a thorough knowledge of the ways in which keris were used in every society where they existed, nor do I have a thorough knowledge of defence force daggers in all countries. Although the keris in Jawa should ideally be used in a surreptitious manner, on those occasions where this was not possible, the available evidence indicates that it was used in a manner similar to the way in which a rapier was used. However, although the keris in Jawa may have been used in some circumstances, in a similar way to the rapier, there was no system of fence taught for its use. Actually, dependent upon circumstances, blade length is not particularly important in ensuring the demise of an opponent. I once sat through a training video of an actual event that occurred in the USA. A highway patrol officer stopped a vehicle to question the driver. The driver did not wish to be questioned so he slashed the officer's throat with the short blade of a Swiss Army Knife. The short blade of a SA knife is about 1.5 inches long. The officer died. Blade width is not all that important either. Prior to WWII most women in Australia would not leave the house without wearing a hat. These hats were kept in place with hat pins, which were very thin, sharply pointed steel pins up to 6 inches long. I used to know a woman who was molested by a man whilst travelling by rail, she stabbed him repeatedly with her hat pin. The man died as result of this attack. Then we have another example from Jawa itself. In Jawa, especially in East Jawa and Madura, cock fighting spurs are a favourite weapon of those people who use sharp pointy things to injure or kill others. These spurs are razor sharp and around 3 or 4 inches long and about 1/4 inch wide, for use as a weapon a piece of cloth is wound around the base and the size permits easy concealment in the hand. A favoured technique is to walk towards the target and slash his or her throat in passing. Circumstances alter cases.

12th April 2016, 12:19 PM	#16
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	Alan, it is generally correct. I would replace the "year 1800" with early 1800-ties. The importance of the length of Keris as one of the indicators of hierarchical position was still understood by some people in the 1970-ties.

12th April 2016, 03:17 PM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Thank you for that clarification Gustav. You know who my teachers were, and you know that they were placed at the highest level relevant to keris knowledge within the Karaton Surakarta. Nothing I learnt from those teachers supports the information you have been given. Similarly nothing in the +60 years of personal study that I have undertaken supports the information you have been given. This is not to say that your informant(s) advice is incorrect, but I am confident that your informant's advice is not applicable to the Karaton Surakarta, which is the senior royal house of Jawa and in direct line of descent from the Kingdom of Majapahit. The veracity of this concept of keris length as an indicator of status in Javanese society must be subject to question because of the relevant socio-cultural factors, as I will attempt to clarify below. The nature of the hierarchical indicators in Javanese society in comparison with Balinese society are different. This difference is based in societal difference, which in turn is based in differing religious orientation. In Balinese society a man's position in the earthly hierarchy is ultimately dependent upon the hierarchical relationship of a man to the Gods. The basic idea is that the Gods are above mankind, and sit at a higher physical level than does all of mankind, thus the closer one is to the gods, the higher one's position is in an earthly hierarchy. Naturally, the Gods themselves sit in their own hierarchy, with Siwa at the highest position, however, just because Siwa sits at the highest level this does not mean that he is the ultimate essence of the universe. Siwa and in fact all the Gods are merely manifestations of the One God, Sanghyang Widi Wasa who is the essence that is present in all the Gods, and that permeates everything. This belief is perhaps a bit like the belief encapsulated in the Gospel of Thomas (77), or maybe in the more widely accepted belief in the Christian Holy Spirit. In Islamic Jawa the Jawa-Hindu hierarchy of Gods above men and some men having a higher universal position than other men was replaced under Islam with the idea that all men are equal before the One God, and that the One God is above all men. The idea of an earthly hierarchy based upon the proximity of a man to the Gods was replaced by a purely earth-bound hierarchy, where the hierarchical position of a man was based upon the proximity of the man to his earthly ruler, but the earthly ruler was no higher than any other man before the One God. Thus, in Javanese court society, which is the model for other segments of society within the greater sphere of Javanese society, the hierarchical position of a man is indicated by his proximity to the person of recognised senior status within the group. For example, in a group which included the ruler, it would be the ruler who held senior status. However, hierarchy in Jawa is in most cases situational, thus the person of senior status in one group may not necessarily be the person of senior status in a different group. The overall concept is the "kawula - gusti" principle, the inter-relationship between servant and master, where neither can cross the line that divides but where both must maintain a familial relationship with the other, in fact ideally they merge to form a harmonious whole, which of course reflects the relationship between God and man; Moertono provides an excellent explanation of this concept. This recognition of hierarchical position being dependent upon the situation, has generated the indication of status being based in a physical relationship that recognises horizontal proximity to the person of senior status rather than upon vertical proximity to the Gods. The status indicators in Javanese traditional society are based primarily in the mode of dress, where very slight variation that may well go unnoticed by an untrained person will indicate the status of one person relevant to another. This in turn dictates the form of speech, the form of body language, and the mode of behaviour that each person uses in his or her relationship with the other. Within this overall lexicon of status indicators, the keris can in some circumstances become one of the indicators. In the courts of Jawa this was/is not dependent upon keris size, but rather it is dependent upon keris dress, and sometimes upon the position in which the keris is worn. The well known use of colour in keris dress to indicate status is the obvious example. In Jawa, the length of the keris is related to two determinants:- the first is the physical size of the man, the second is the size that is calculated as lucky, or correct, for use by that man. This calculation can be carried out in a number of ways, the two best known are by the use of measurement based upon the bearer's fingers, and measurement based upon the use of a randomly chosen palm leaf or length of twine. In Bali similar systems of measurement to determine suitability are also used, and as in Jawa, they have nothing at all to do with status. In addition to these common determinants mentioned above, a man may choose to determine the length of his keris by use of the services of a dukun, or by meditation, or by dream visitations, or by application of the principles of the Candra Sangkala. In Javanese traditional society, keris length will only vary by very small amounts, and the actual length will be fixed by one of the methods mentioned above, and only then if the bearer holds a belief that length should be a matter for concern. However, sometimes, especially if a keris is made on specific order by a true Empu, the empu himself will dictate the length based upon either one of the methods mentioned, or by a method that he himself favours. The reason that perceived keris length cannot vary greatly in Javanese traditional society is based in the fact that the keris when worn must conform to the standard of dress. There is an almost universal standard that applies in each particular court to the perceived size of the keris when it is worn. There is variation in size of dress from court to court, but within each court size is remarkably uniform. Keris length may vary slightly within the set parameters, but that variation cannot be seen when the keris is worn, nor is it symbolic of status. To summarise the difference between the Balinese hierarchical structure, and the Javanese hierarchical structure, perhaps the easiest way for us to visualise this is to think in terms of the Balinese societal hierarchy being vertical, whilst the Javanese societal hierarchy is horizontal. Please note:- what I have written is related to Javanese traditional society, and this limits the area under discussion to those parts of Jawa that were/are under the influence of the courts of the heartland.

12th April 2016, 03:36 PM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Roland, I find your comments in your Post#30 to be interesting, and clearly indicative of the stage your study of the keris has reached. I do urge you to continue your studies.

13th April 2016, 12:44 AM	#20
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Actually David, I think that Roland may have given us some very valuable, previously unknown information. His mention of duels in times past that involved the use of the keris is something I have no knowledge of. In fact, there is no system of fence that was ever taught for the keris, at least in Jawa. The way a keris, or for that matter any weapon is used is to conceal intent until the last moment and then kill the target as quickly and cleanly as possible, before he even knows that he is threatened. I've seen Indonesian historical soapies where duels proliferate, but that's TV entertainment, not reality. The mention of duels in the current era is also something unknown to me. For the life of me, I cannot imagine who the protagonists would be. Certainly not any member of the aristocracy, such crude behaviour is something that would see any aristocrat who was involved in it subjected to social exclusion. In the lower orders of society, especially amongst manual workers and rural workers very savage fights are not uncommon, but the weapon mostly used in those fights is the celurit, simply because it is the weapon that is usually close at hand. Present day duels with the keris? Who? When? Where? Yes, previously unknown, and thus valuable information.