Identification Request; Iron Pike or Flag Topper

dketch · 10th March 2011, 10:34 PM

Hello All,

My name is Doug and joined the forum in the hopes to find someone who could help me identify an old forged iron piece I have.

I just recently returned from a deployment to Afghanistan. While there I was approached by an elderly Afghan man and who wanted to sell me what appeared to be a pike top. Feeling bad for the old, obviously poor man I went ahead and purchased the old forged iron piece although not for the hefty price he wanted to sell it to me for. But I thought it looked interesting, so I bought it. I asked him what exactly it was and the old man assured me, "It old....200-300 years old and sit on top of flag pole."

At first I thought it was a spear, pike, or lance head (because it is about a foot long, has four triangular sides, and comes to a point at the top), but the old man assured me it was a flag staff topper (it has no sharp edges, nor is the top sharpe). I have tried to find any information online about what it is, background, it's value, etc... It appears to be made of cast iron and has two gold colored rings at the base with a multiple "V" shaped pattern.

Would anyone happen to have any info about this (what it is, where it is from, how old it is, etc...) If not, could you perhaps direct me toward someone online who is an expert and might know?

I will try and provided some photos very soon (in attachment). Any info anyone can provide will be grately appreciated.

Thank You,

- Doug

dketcher2002@yahoo.com

fernando · 10th March 2011, 10:48 PM

Pictures

.

kronckew · 11th March 2011, 09:42 AM

modern lance point, square cross section, fullers. the blade portion on it is about six inches and the socket about 3 in. when rough forged & before cleaning and polishing/sharpening it looks much like fernando's photos.

military pikes frequently had similar square cross section heads, especially naval boarding pikes. broad bladed sharpened edged leaf shaped spearheads were not needed on a pure thrusting pole-arm. most had languets running down the shaft from the socket as re-enforcement & to protect against sword blows.

flags were initially carried on lances, so i can envisage an old lance being used as a flag staff. age of course would tend to round the edges and point which was no longer used as a weapon.

photos and dimensions would be nice.

(fernando, is your post another example or is it a helpful posting of the original posters photos?)

fernando · 11th March 2011, 10:34 AM

Hi Wayne

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... (fernando, is your post another example or is it a helpful posting of the original posters photos?)

Those are Doug's piece actual photos.

kronckew · 11th March 2011, 11:28 AM

thanks for the clarification, fernando. doug's photos scream 'weapon' to me.

just for interest & comparison, this is the rough forged snapshot of the modern made lance point i posted:

katana · 11th March 2011, 04:06 PM

Seems very similar to something I have

.....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=lance

Regards David

David R · 12th March 2011, 01:03 PM

Looks very like an old Indian lance point I have in my collection. When obsolete what better use for one of these than as a flag staff finial. Looks like it was a nice high class piece back in the day.

tom hyle · 13th March 2011, 06:23 AM

Look inside the hole of the socket; can you see whether it was curled/hammerd together, etc?

dketch · 13th March 2011, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Seems very similar to something I have

.....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=lance

Regards David

Thanks All for your input. David, I just looked up the photos you posted of your weapon and I have to say I am amazed at the similarities with myne....

dketch · 13th March 2011, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

thanks for the clarification, fernando. doug's photos scream 'weapon' to me.

just for interest & comparison, this is the rough forged snapshot of the modern made lance point i posted:

Thanks for your input. The photo you posted looks very similar to the piece I have no doubt.

dketch · 13th March 2011, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

Looks very like an old Indian lance point I have in my collection. When obsolete what better use for one of these than as a flag staff finial. Looks like it was a nice high class piece back in the day.

Cool, Thanks for your input David. I appreciate it.

dketch · 13th March 2011, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

Looks very like an old Indian lance point I have in my collection. When obsolete what better use for one of these than as a flag staff finial. Looks like it was a nice high class piece back in the day.

Cool, Thanks for your input David. I appreciate it.

dketch · 13th March 2011, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Look inside the hole of the socket; can you see whether it was curled/hammerd together, etc?

Thanks for the question, Tom. Will take a look and post what I find. Not having a "weapons" background or expertise as many of you do, what specifically should I be looking for, Tom?

dketch · 14th March 2011, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Look inside the hole of the socket; can you see whether it was curled/hammerd together, etc?

Thanks Again Tom,

Ok, I looked in the socket hole; there is no sign of a seam and the inside is much rougher to the touch than the outside of the pike (and the metal thickness is a little inconsistant around the outside/edges), so I am assuming it was hammered or poured as a single piece (?) although for as heavy and thick as it is, it would have been a tough go at it I would think.

Any other suggestions / recommendations?

- Doug

dketch · 14th March 2011, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Seems very similar to something I have

.....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=lance

Regards David

David, do you think my pike was built in the same area or timeframe as the one you have? If so, any idea as to when / where it was made?

David R · 20th March 2011, 01:24 AM

Looked through the Royal Armouries Indian collection again, the balance of probability is an Indian Lance head of the 18th 19th C. Same for Katana's posted piccy. The engraved decoration and the hollow ground faces looks pretty diagnostic to me. They didn't need to be super sharp, you are backing them up with a galloping horse after all, and to punch through armour a rigid blade section is more important.

dketch · 26th March 2011, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

Looked through the Royal Armouries Indian collection again, the balance of probability is an Indian Lance head of the 18th 19th C. Same for Katana's posted piccy. The engraved decoration and the hollow ground faces looks pretty diagnostic to me. They didn't need to be super sharp, you are backing them up with a galloping horse after all, and to punch through armour a rigid blade section is more important.

Very cool. Thank You, David!

10th March 2011, 10:34 PM	#1
dketch Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 12	Identification Request; Iron Pike or Flag Topper Hello All, My name is Doug and joined the forum in the hopes to find someone who could help me identify an old forged iron piece I have. I just recently returned from a deployment to Afghanistan. While there I was approached by an elderly Afghan man and who wanted to sell me what appeared to be a pike top. Feeling bad for the old, obviously poor man I went ahead and purchased the old forged iron piece although not for the hefty price he wanted to sell it to me for. But I thought it looked interesting, so I bought it. I asked him what exactly it was and the old man assured me, "It old....200-300 years old and sit on top of flag pole." At first I thought it was a spear, pike, or lance head (because it is about a foot long, has four triangular sides, and comes to a point at the top), but the old man assured me it was a flag staff topper (it has no sharp edges, nor is the top sharpe). I have tried to find any information online about what it is, background, it's value, etc... It appears to be made of cast iron and has two gold colored rings at the base with a multiple "V" shaped pattern. Would anyone happen to have any info about this (what it is, where it is from, how old it is, etc...) If not, could you perhaps direct me toward someone online who is an expert and might know? I will try and provided some photos very soon (in attachment). Any info anyone can provide will be grately appreciated. Thank You, - Doug dketcher2002@yahoo.com

10th March 2011, 10:48 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Pictures . Attached Images

11th March 2011, 09:42 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	modern lance point, square cross section, fullers. the blade portion on it is about six inches and the socket about 3 in. when rough forged & before cleaning and polishing/sharpening it looks much like fernando's photos. military pikes frequently had similar square cross section heads, especially naval boarding pikes. broad bladed sharpened edged leaf shaped spearheads were not needed on a pure thrusting pole-arm. most had languets running down the shaft from the socket as re-enforcement & to protect against sword blows. flags were initially carried on lances, so i can envisage an old lance being used as a flag staff. age of course would tend to round the edges and point which was no longer used as a weapon. photos and dimensions would be nice. (fernando, is your post another example or is it a helpful posting of the original posters photos?) Last edited by kronckew; 11th March 2011 at 10:11 AM.

11th March 2011, 11:28 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	thanks for the clarification, fernando. doug's photos scream 'weapon' to me. just for interest & comparison, this is the rough forged snapshot of the modern made lance point i posted: Attached Images

12th March 2011, 01:03 PM	#7
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Lance point Looks very like an old Indian lance point I have in my collection. When obsolete what better use for one of these than as a flag staff finial. Looks like it was a nice high class piece back in the day.

11th March 2011, 04:06 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Seems very similar to something I have ..... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=lance Regards David

13th March 2011, 06:23 AM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Look inside the hole of the socket; can you see whether it was curled/hammerd together, etc?

20th March 2011, 01:24 AM	#16
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Lance point Looked through the Royal Armouries Indian collection again, the balance of probability is an Indian Lance head of the 18th 19th C. Same for Katana's posted piccy. The engraved decoration and the hollow ground faces looks pretty diagnostic to me. They didn't need to be super sharp, you are backing them up with a galloping horse after all, and to punch through armour a rigid blade section is more important.