3 large yataghan (T-spine, T-pommel, Turkish Ribbon)

Emanuel · 18th March 2014, 05:05 PM

Hi everyone,

After a long pause I recently acquired these three Yataghan. I am most attracted to this type of yataghan because they are substantial, heavy-duty pieces, much sturdier than the thinner, slimmer, fancier type. They also feature an integral bolster construction that doesn't actually seem to be that wide spread in European/Mediterranean/Ottoman weaponry.

The top one is a monster, with 29" (74cm) blade that is 1.3cm thick at the base. The bolster is almost 3cm wide. With a large horn T-pommel, the type is associated with Zeybek irregulars/mercenaries The blade has scratched decoration on the surface, can anyone decipher? The scabbard is wood wrapped with leather and green fabric strips, similar to the kind seen on some Surmene and Laz weapons. The rough scabbard throat and tip might be tarnished silver, or just steel. I think I see 1913 very roughly punched on the throat. An identical one is pictured in this old thread

The second one shows better quality, and I had thought it might have a Turkish ribbon pattern-welded blade. I will know after a trial etch. The large blade is 28" (71cm) long. The T-pommel had a piece broken off and reattached with some putty. It broke during shipping but I should be able to re-attach it nicely. The scabbard is leather glued over wood, with brass throat and tip. The blade doesn't fit in very well so maybe it wasn't original. This blade seems to have lots of silver inlay and overlay, made with the later triangular punch technique. Can anyone translate any of the cartouches? In one or two cases I'm not sure of the correct orientation.

The bottom one shows the best quality. The blade definitely has Turkish ribbon construction and it has nice brass inlay. It is dated 1239 = 1823. This would make it the earliest dated yataghan with integral bolster I have seen. The blade is still generous, at 24"(60cm) long and 1cm thick. The profile of the T spine is more refined and lighter than the larger two. Here is one with very similar blade.

Any thoughts of comments about the very large yataghan in particular and how they fit in what we know about this weapon style?

Thanks,
Emanuel

Emanuel · 18th March 2014, 05:08 PM

Detailed pics

Emanuel · 18th March 2014, 05:11 PM

Not sure about the orientation on some of these.

Emanuel · 18th March 2014, 05:12 PM

And the nicest one

Emanuel · 19th March 2014, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Detailed pics

Do I read this correctly as a stylized 1279 = 1862?

Another inscription on the top yataghan.

Zifir · 19th March 2014, 08:26 PM

I will start with the post #5:

As far as I see it's; li-sene 1331 / Year 1912/13

The inscription:
Lâ fetâ illâ Ali, lâ seyfe illâ Zülfikâr / There is no hero like Ali, there is no sword like his sword (zülfikar)

Zifir · 19th March 2014, 08:53 PM

Post # 4

Maşae Allah, 1239, sahib Mustafa / As Allah wishes or willed (a phrase used to show appreciation -as well as to avoid casting a bad eye on something), Year 1823-24, owner Mustafa

Emmanuel can you post the rest of this picture, because I cannot be sure without seeing it.

Emanuel · 19th March 2014, 08:55 PM

Great, thanks Zifir!
That matches the 1913 on the scabbard then. So this makes the large yataghan the latest I have seen, and an example of 20th century production

This also matches what Sancar and others have said concerning these monster yataghan with T-pommel being more for show. The craftsmanship is quite poor, despite the large quantity of steel.

I will take better pictures of the inscription on the bottom one tomorrow.

Emanuel

TVV · 19th March 2014, 11:21 PM

Nice yataghans Emanuel, all testaments to the longevity of this blade design, which remained in use in Asia Minor and the Balkans until WWI. I believe there is a good chance at least 2 of the 3, if not all 3, have Turkish ribbon blades. Look forward to seeing them after you etch them.

Teodor

archer burak · 21st March 2014, 10:39 PM

very good yatağans cong...

Zifir · 23rd March 2014, 05:50 PM

Post # 2
Names of seven sleepers and their dog:
Yemliha, Meksalina, Mislina, Mernuş, Debernuş, Sazenuş, Kefestetayuş, Kıtmir

Zifir · 23rd March 2014, 06:48 PM

Post #3,
similarly some of the names of seven sleepers:
Yemliha, Meksalina, Mislina, Mernuş, Debernuş
but the rest are missing.

I am not very sure about the makers name, and I could not the second inscription.

Emanuel · 24th March 2014, 06:45 PM

Many thanks for the translations Zifir!

I think I pretty much covered all of the inscriptions but I will check and upload anything missing.

Just trying my hand at etching using 1:3 ferric chloride:water solution. I shouldn't have any problem with the silver inlay should I?

sfenoid13 · 31st July 2014, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zifir

Post # 2
Names of seven sleepers and their dog:
Yemliha, Meksalina, Mislina, Mernuş, Debernuş, Sazenuş, Kefestetayuş, Kıtmir

what language are these spelled in? it doesnt look like Ottoman..

Zifir · 31st July 2014, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

what language are these spelled in? it doesnt look like Ottoman..

I believe they are arabified versions of Roman names.

Ottoman Turks probably learned them through Arab/Islamic sources.

werecow · 20th November 2023, 08:34 PM

According to the seller this yataghan is 113 cm long. Unfortunately not mine so I can't confirm it.

18th March 2014, 05:05 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	3 large yataghan (T-spine, T-pommel, Turkish Ribbon) Hi everyone, After a long pause I recently acquired these three Yataghan. I am most attracted to this type of yataghan because they are substantial, heavy-duty pieces, much sturdier than the thinner, slimmer, fancier type. They also feature an integral bolster construction that doesn't actually seem to be that wide spread in European/Mediterranean/Ottoman weaponry. The top one is a monster, with 29" (74cm) blade that is 1.3cm thick at the base. The bolster is almost 3cm wide. With a large horn T-pommel, the type is associated with Zeybek irregulars/mercenaries The blade has scratched decoration on the surface, can anyone decipher? The scabbard is wood wrapped with leather and green fabric strips, similar to the kind seen on some Surmene and Laz weapons. The rough scabbard throat and tip might be tarnished silver, or just steel. I think I see 1913 very roughly punched on the throat. An identical one is pictured in this old thread The second one shows better quality, and I had thought it might have a Turkish ribbon pattern-welded blade. I will know after a trial etch. The large blade is 28" (71cm) long. The T-pommel had a piece broken off and reattached with some putty. It broke during shipping but I should be able to re-attach it nicely. The scabbard is leather glued over wood, with brass throat and tip. The blade doesn't fit in very well so maybe it wasn't original. This blade seems to have lots of silver inlay and overlay, made with the later triangular punch technique. Can anyone translate any of the cartouches? In one or two cases I'm not sure of the correct orientation. The bottom one shows the best quality. The blade definitely has Turkish ribbon construction and it has nice brass inlay. It is dated 1239 = 1823. This would make it the earliest dated yataghan with integral bolster I have seen. The blade is still generous, at 24"(60cm) long and 1cm thick. The profile of the T spine is more refined and lighter than the larger two. Here is one with very similar blade. Any thoughts of comments about the very large yataghan in particular and how they fit in what we know about this weapon style? Thanks, Emanuel Attached Images Last edited by Emanuel; 18th March 2014 at 06:49 PM.

18th March 2014, 05:08 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Top one Detailed pics Attached Images

18th March 2014, 05:12 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Bottom one And the nicest one Attached Images

19th March 2014, 08:53 PM	#7
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Post # 4 Maşae Allah, 1239, sahib Mustafa / As Allah wishes or willed (a phrase used to show appreciation -as well as to avoid casting a bad eye on something), Year 1823-24, owner Mustafa Emmanuel can you post the rest of this picture, because I cannot be sure without seeing it. Attached Images

19th March 2014, 08:55 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Great, thanks Zifir! That matches the 1913 on the scabbard then. So this makes the large yataghan the latest I have seen, and an example of 20th century production This also matches what Sancar and others have said concerning these monster yataghan with T-pommel being more for show. The craftsmanship is quite poor, despite the large quantity of steel. I will take better pictures of the inscription on the bottom one tomorrow. Emanuel Last edited by Emanuel; 19th March 2014 at 10:21 PM.

18th March 2014, 05:11 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Middle one Not sure about the orientation on some of these. Attached Images

19th March 2014, 08:26 PM	#6
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	I will start with the post #5: As far as I see it's; li-sene 1331 / Year 1912/13 The inscription: Lâ fetâ illâ Ali, lâ seyfe illâ Zülfikâr / There is no hero like Ali, there is no sword like his sword (zülfikar)

19th March 2014, 11:21 PM	#9
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Nice yataghans Emanuel, all testaments to the longevity of this blade design, which remained in use in Asia Minor and the Balkans until WWI. I believe there is a good chance at least 2 of the 3, if not all 3, have Turkish ribbon blades. Look forward to seeing them after you etch them. Teodor

21st March 2014, 10:39 PM	#10
archer burak Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: İstanbul Posts: 22	very good yatağans cong...

23rd March 2014, 05:50 PM	#11
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Post # 2 Names of seven sleepers and their dog: Yemliha, Meksalina, Mislina, Mernuş, Debernuş, Sazenuş, Kefestetayuş, Kıtmir

23rd March 2014, 06:48 PM	#12
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Post #3, similarly some of the names of seven sleepers: Yemliha, Meksalina, Mislina, Mernuş, Debernuş but the rest are missing. I am not very sure about the makers name, and I could not the second inscription. Attached Images

24th March 2014, 06:45 PM	#13
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Many thanks for the translations Zifir! I think I pretty much covered all of the inscriptions but I will check and upload anything missing. Just trying my hand at etching using 1:3 ferric chloride:water solution. I shouldn't have any problem with the silver inlay should I?

20th November 2023, 08:34 PM	#16
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 499	According to the seller this yataghan is 113 cm long. Unfortunately not mine so I can't confirm it. Attached Images