Enigma

Kubur · 27th April 2019, 10:43 PM

Hi guys

I know very well the rules of this forum and i will post photos of the whole sword.
But my question has some sense only if i can get some ideas and opinions about the blade first.
What do you think about this blade, origin, date????
thanks

Kubur

broadaxe · 27th April 2019, 11:12 PM

Supposedly German Passau made, 16th century.

Edster · 28th April 2019, 12:03 AM

Ah,ha. That's what they want you to believe. These marks can be made easily by anyone who wishes. The fuller is high quality so must be European, Indian or Persian, but I suspect only European would have made the mark. The top mark has some highlights like it was made recently. But of course it could be very early Solingen.

Regards,
Ed

kahnjar1 · 28th April 2019, 12:49 AM

Do I see the remains of some lettering in the fuller? Think you need to post a full pic.

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2019, 01:17 AM

That is a pretty standard edition of the so called 'running wolf', and pretty good condition. The blade is pretty much an 'arming' blade and these were basically Solingen trade blades of 17th into 18th c. often with this type of central fuller.
While the 'Passau' wolf began with knife makers in Passau, it was later picked up by Solingen smiths and I believe Wagner (1967) claimed it began being placed on blades produced in Solingen for Passau armorers. It seems that it gradually became more broadly used in Solingen on a wide range of blades.
These were not by any means a standardized mark, nor indicator of any particular maker, and variations of these chiseled marks were many .

Wagner shows a chart of these accompanied by years, however there is no chronological development in reality, they were simply varied by the worker who applied them. Its as Ed notes, these could be, and have been spuriously applied (hands on examination better to confirm) but this mark corresponds to the most commonly seen versions.
These were not as commonly copied in most ethnographic centers, as the so called 'sickle' marks were, though many have the idea they were. Actually the only place outside Europe I know of that copied them was in Chechen centers such as Ataghi, in the 19th c.

Kubur · 28th April 2019, 11:05 PM

Hi guys
thank you for your comments, i agree totally of course.
Now I own a few solingen passau blades and i know how they should look like.This blade looks like a 16 17th c. blade. If its a copy it's an amazing copy.
Now this blade comes with a jineta hilt.
The guard / hilt connection looks machine cut sp it's a 19th c. copy.
BUT the hilt is finely engraved, tombak covered and decorated with glass stones and turquoises like eastern European swords.
I looked at all the 19th c. jineta copies sold the past 15 years and this one is far above the best ones that I've seen on line.
It's a mystery for me... I'll post some photos and i hope some members will be able to give me the origin of this 19th c. copy...

27th April 2019, 10:43 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Enigma Hi guys I know very well the rules of this forum and i will post photos of the whole sword. But my question has some sense only if i can get some ideas and opinions about the blade first. What do you think about this blade, origin, date???? thanks Kubur Attached Images

28th April 2019, 12:03 AM	#3
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Ah,ha. That's what they want you to believe. These marks can be made easily by anyone who wishes. The fuller is high quality so must be European, Indian or Persian, but I suspect only European would have made the mark. The top mark has some highlights like it was made recently. But of course it could be very early Solingen. Regards, Ed Last edited by Edster; 28th April 2019 at 12:30 AM.

27th April 2019, 11:12 PM	#2
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Supposedly German Passau made, 16th century.

28th April 2019, 12:49 AM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Do I see the remains of some lettering in the fuller? Think you need to post a full pic.

28th April 2019, 01:17 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	That is a pretty standard edition of the so called 'running wolf', and pretty good condition. The blade is pretty much an 'arming' blade and these were basically Solingen trade blades of 17th into 18th c. often with this type of central fuller. While the 'Passau' wolf began with knife makers in Passau, it was later picked up by Solingen smiths and I believe Wagner (1967) claimed it began being placed on blades produced in Solingen for Passau armorers. It seems that it gradually became more broadly used in Solingen on a wide range of blades. These were not by any means a standardized mark, nor indicator of any particular maker, and variations of these chiseled marks were many . Wagner shows a chart of these accompanied by years, however there is no chronological development in reality, they were simply varied by the worker who applied them. Its as Ed notes, these could be, and have been spuriously applied (hands on examination better to confirm) but this mark corresponds to the most commonly seen versions. These were not as commonly copied in most ethnographic centers, as the so called 'sickle' marks were, though many have the idea they were. Actually the only place outside Europe I know of that copied them was in Chechen centers such as Ataghi, in the 19th c.

28th April 2019, 11:05 PM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi guys thank you for your comments, i agree totally of course. Now I own a few solingen passau blades and i know how they should look like.This blade looks like a 16 17th c. blade. If its a copy it's an amazing copy. Now this blade comes with a jineta hilt. The guard / hilt connection looks machine cut sp it's a 19th c. copy. BUT the hilt is finely engraved, tombak covered and decorated with glass stones and turquoises like eastern European swords. I looked at all the 19th c. jineta copies sold the past 15 years and this one is far above the best ones that I've seen on line. It's a mystery for me... I'll post some photos and i hope some members will be able to give me the origin of this 19th c. copy...