Koummiya Moroccan

BerberDagger · 24th January 2007, 03:30 PM

hi,
i have just buy this moroccan koummiya....for me it is very good and for you?

the symbol on the blade is similar to symbl of Raisuli Tribal....have you got any information for me!!!!

thanks

sorry I dont speack good english

Lew · 24th January 2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BerberDagger

hi,
i have just buy this moroccan koummiya....for me it is very good and for you?

the symbol on the blade is similar to symbl of Raisuli Tribal....have you got any information for me!!!!

thanks

sorry I dont speack good english

Welcome BerberDagger

You will need to post a picture of the dagger for us to look at.

Lew

BerberDagger · 24th January 2007, 05:37 PM

sorry here is photo!!!!

Emanuel · 24th January 2007, 05:41 PM

Hello BerberDagger,

There was a discussion at some point about a koummiya like yours, and someone mentioned that the blade with fullers along the edges at the forte may be Spanish. I like the way this one looks...I'm actually looking to get one, but the ones I've seen on ebay and those I've held were pretty bad.
The stamp on yours is quite interesting, maybe someone can tell us about it.

Emanuel

BerberDagger · 24th January 2007, 05:42 PM

thanks for welcome to forum...i m very happy to speack with member's forum.... I m a collector of german dagger of WWII and of Berber weapons.....but my specialy is napoleonic weapons (dagger,sword and pistols)

sorry for words but i speack little english....i speack more good french , german or italian

kai · 24th January 2007, 08:07 PM

Welcome to the forum!

Make sure to search both this as well as the old forum (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=6) for interesting threads! There are a few folks here with extensive knowledge on Koummyas - I'd like to hear more often of these nice bades though!

I assume you've already seen this article http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/koummya/index.html by our host Lee.

This seems to be a nice piece! Could you please measure the thickness of your blade with calipers? This helps to differentiate serious blades from more decorative/ceremonial ones. Recent tourist stuff is often more easily spotted by crappy blades (which actually don't deserve to be called blades); older tourist stuff can be anything in between AFAIK...

Do you have another example of this stamped mark? More often these seem to originate from stamped European blades which seem to have been prized by Moroccan makers.

Regards,
Kai

BerberDagger · 24th January 2007, 08:19 PM

hello
thanks for reply ,
the thickness mesures 4 mm , if i have understand you questions!!!!

yes this symbol is on a photo of raisuli , in his "t-shirt".....in a old photo that i have buy from england....

kai · 24th January 2007, 09:46 PM

Quote:

the thickness mesures 4 mm

That settles it - a genuine weapon IMHO.

Quote:

yes this symbol is on a photo of raisuli , in his "t-shirt".....in a old photo that i have buy from england....

Could you post a scan? Thanks!

Regards,
Kai

BerberDagger · 24th January 2007, 10:52 PM

symbols at better look is not = but similar.... FOR YOU....

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2007, 03:31 AM

Hi BerberDagger,
That is definitely an extremely attractive koummya, and quite different in the hilt than most I have seen. I just thought I would add a few notes on them that I have found interesting in earlier research and discussions

The koummya is a fascinating weapon, especially in its reflection of influences of other cultures that have come into regions of the Maghreb. It has been suggested that the arched pommel may be traced back to traders from Venice and the distinctive swords known as cinqueda, however this suggestion may be best considered apocryphal, but one can see the clear similarity to many of those pommels.

The scabbard design appears to derive of course from the Arabian janbiyya, with the recurved tip and the bulb at the end (as seen on most Omani examples).

Concerning this example, I am unclear whether this blade would be Spanish, however it would seem that cross marking is intended to allude to that influence. This type cross, in what appears stylized interpretation clearly resembles the 'crusaders cross' of medieval times, which became the Santiago cross in Spain. Although not distinctly known as a makers mark, it is known to have appeared on swords and armor in Switzerland (as early as 12th c.) and in Spain as well as in Germany. It seems that typically it has appeared on early Spanish swords
often in groupings of four (early Hispano-Moresque 'jineta').

I am not sure that there are distinct 'tribal' symbols among the many Berber tribes, as it seems most geometric and cosmological motif and decoration is applied somewhat generally in accordance to local folk religion and associated superstitious beliefs.

If anyone has studied the anthropology of the Berbers I would very much like to know if such tribal symbolism does exist.

I believe that the cross symbol has been added to this blade, as is so often the case in North African edged weapons, to imbue the weapon with the virtues of the much desired European blades.

The very attractive vertically fluted horn grips remind me of early French sabres of Napoleonic period that often had these ebony grips. I cannot I can recall seeing them on koumyya. Anyone out there have other examples ?

Best regards,
Jim

ErnestoJuan · 27th January 2007, 10:28 AM

Hi all,

This type of koummya is generally called "queue de paon", peacock's tail.
The fluted horn grips are common on these types of koummyas. I am in the middle of moving so therefore unfortunately I cannot make pictures and post them, I try to keep it in mind.

Jim, thanks again for your extensive post; it is indeed very hard to find material about koummya's and berber tribes.

Ernst

BerberDagger · 27th January 2007, 06:09 PM

HELLO !thanks for yours reply.....
I have speack with a my moroccan friend, it is arab's teacher in University....
he tell me that this koummiya is made on 1870-1920 and it is very good moroccan koummiya with arabish hispanish culture ....the symbl on a blade for his ...is a berber symbol diffused in morocco from 1870....Raisuli is a head of berber people and he aggree with spanish people...this koummiya is of time of Raisuli (1870-1925) for my moroccan friend...
he has tell me other important information abaut this dagger but i dont able to translate in english....BUT for you is possible ???

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2007, 05:42 AM

Thank you ErnestoJuan!! and for the 'Peacocks Tail' term which I have added to my notes. Also appreciate the note on the fluted grips, which as I mention I had not seen on the few examples I have handled. You are right, like so many ethnographic weapons, information is pretty sparse on the koummya, and must be gleaned from many sources. I very much hope you might post the pictures and info on those koummya variants once you get settled

BerberDagger, I am very interested in knowing more on that Berber symbol! and would like to find out more on symbols used by Berber tribes if you can find out more, please post OK?

We have always seen pretty general geometric designs used in material culture throughout the Sahara, but if you have access to data on that it would be excellent if we could identify such tribal markings.

Thanks very much guys!
All the best,
Jim

BerberDagger · 28th January 2007, 06:07 PM

hi , thank you
Yes i post information of berber symbol when I have translate it...Azedine , my moroccan friend has find this information on internet (in arabian language) and on his personal books...

i post this pommel of koummiya...it is very similar to other koummiya for me!!!!!????

BerberDagger · 28th January 2007, 06:09 PM

this is photo!!!

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2007, 06:38 PM

Thanks BerberDagger, I look forward to more on that information!
Thats great, you have another one too! Very nice

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 28th January 2007, 06:57 PM

Hi BerberDagger!
Also have a look at this useful site: http://blade.japet.com/koummya.htm

Emanuel

BerberDagger · 29th January 2007, 01:49 AM

thanks Jim McDougall and Manolo for information.... I post berber information this week ....

but abaut blade of moroccan dagger,for Azedine is not important blade of koummiya becouse berber use not good iron like european blade and much koummiya are confused with tourist item but it is good....

for Azidine this little koummiya is good , not tourist item for exemple...blade is not made with good iron but he tell me that is not important for normal berber people....not scheich or head or rich berber....

sorry for my little english!!!

Emanuel · 29th January 2007, 03:24 AM

Like Fenris said, BerberDagger,
If you think you could use this knife in a fight, to cut or stab, then it may be good, even if it is made of poor materials. Usually a very thin blade is not useful, it may break more easily than a thick one.
Emanuel

BerberDagger · 28th February 2007, 10:07 PM

Hi this is symbol of berber culture...I have other document more good but it s is in arabian language...

Emanuel · 1st March 2007, 01:35 AM

Hello BerberDagger,
Thanks for this, it'll be quite helpful and I think I recognize some symbols that I've seen on some flyssa.
All the best,
Emanuel

24th January 2007, 03:30 PM	#1
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	Koummiya Moroccan hi, i have just buy this moroccan koummiya....for me it is very good and for you? the symbol on the blade is similar to symbl of Raisuli Tribal....have you got any information for me!!!! thanks sorry I dont speack good english

24th January 2007, 05:37 PM	#3
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	sorry here is photo!!!! Attached Images

24th January 2007, 05:41 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello BerberDagger, There was a discussion at some point about a koummiya like yours, and someone mentioned that the blade with fullers along the edges at the forte may be Spanish. I like the way this one looks...I'm actually looking to get one, but the ones I've seen on ebay and those I've held were pretty bad. The stamp on yours is quite interesting, maybe someone can tell us about it. Emanuel Last edited by Manolo; 24th January 2007 at 05:47 PM. Reason: name mistake

24th January 2007, 05:42 PM	#5
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	thanks thanks for welcome to forum...i m very happy to speack with member's forum.... I m a collector of german dagger of WWII and of Berber weapons.....but my specialy is napoleonic weapons (dagger,sword and pistols) sorry for words but i speack little english....i speack more good french , german or italian

24th January 2007, 08:19 PM	#7
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	hello hello thanks for reply , the thickness mesures 4 mm , if i have understand you questions!!!! yes this symbol is on a photo of raisuli , in his "t-shirt".....in a old photo that i have buy from england....

24th January 2007, 08:07 PM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Welcome to the forum! Make sure to search both this as well as the old forum (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=6) for interesting threads! There are a few folks here with extensive knowledge on Koummyas - I'd like to hear more often of these nice bades though! I assume you've already seen this article http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/koummya/index.html by our host Lee. This seems to be a nice piece! Could you please measure the thickness of your blade with calipers? This helps to differentiate serious blades from more decorative/ceremonial ones. Recent tourist stuff is often more easily spotted by crappy blades (which actually don't deserve to be called blades); older tourist stuff can be anything in between AFAIK... Do you have another example of this stamped mark? More often these seem to originate from stamped European blades which seem to have been prized by Moroccan makers. Regards, Kai

24th January 2007, 10:52 PM	#9
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	symbols at better look is not = but similar.... FOR YOU.... Attached Images

26th January 2007, 03:31 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Hi BerberDagger, That is definitely an extremely attractive koummya, and quite different in the hilt than most I have seen. I just thought I would add a few notes on them that I have found interesting in earlier research and discussions The koummya is a fascinating weapon, especially in its reflection of influences of other cultures that have come into regions of the Maghreb. It has been suggested that the arched pommel may be traced back to traders from Venice and the distinctive swords known as cinqueda, however this suggestion may be best considered apocryphal, but one can see the clear similarity to many of those pommels. The scabbard design appears to derive of course from the Arabian janbiyya, with the recurved tip and the bulb at the end (as seen on most Omani examples). Concerning this example, I am unclear whether this blade would be Spanish, however it would seem that cross marking is intended to allude to that influence. This type cross, in what appears stylized interpretation clearly resembles the 'crusaders cross' of medieval times, which became the Santiago cross in Spain. Although not distinctly known as a makers mark, it is known to have appeared on swords and armor in Switzerland (as early as 12th c.) and in Spain as well as in Germany. It seems that typically it has appeared on early Spanish swords often in groupings of four (early Hispano-Moresque 'jineta'). I am not sure that there are distinct 'tribal' symbols among the many Berber tribes, as it seems most geometric and cosmological motif and decoration is applied somewhat generally in accordance to local folk religion and associated superstitious beliefs. If anyone has studied the anthropology of the Berbers I would very much like to know if such tribal symbolism does exist. I believe that the cross symbol has been added to this blade, as is so often the case in North African edged weapons, to imbue the weapon with the virtues of the much desired European blades. The very attractive vertically fluted horn grips remind me of early French sabres of Napoleonic period that often had these ebony grips. I cannot I can recall seeing them on koumyya. Anyone out there have other examples ? Best regards, Jim

27th January 2007, 10:28 AM	#11
ErnestoJuan Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europa Posts: 60	Hi all, This type of koummya is generally called "queue de paon", peacock's tail. The fluted horn grips are common on these types of koummyas. I am in the middle of moving so therefore unfortunately I cannot make pictures and post them, I try to keep it in mind. Jim, thanks again for your extensive post; it is indeed very hard to find material about koummya's and berber tribes. Ernst

27th January 2007, 06:09 PM	#12
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	THANKS HELLO !thanks for yours reply..... I have speack with a my moroccan friend, it is arab's teacher in University.... he tell me that this koummiya is made on 1870-1920 and it is very good moroccan koummiya with arabish hispanish culture ....the symbl on a blade for his ...is a berber symbol diffused in morocco from 1870....Raisuli is a head of berber people and he aggree with spanish people...this koummiya is of time of Raisuli (1870-1925) for my moroccan friend... he has tell me other important information abaut this dagger but i dont able to translate in english....BUT for you is possible ???

28th January 2007, 05:42 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Thank you ErnestoJuan!! and for the 'Peacocks Tail' term which I have added to my notes. Also appreciate the note on the fluted grips, which as I mention I had not seen on the few examples I have handled. You are right, like so many ethnographic weapons, information is pretty sparse on the koummya, and must be gleaned from many sources. I very much hope you might post the pictures and info on those koummya variants once you get settled BerberDagger, I am very interested in knowing more on that Berber symbol! and would like to find out more on symbols used by Berber tribes if you can find out more, please post OK? We have always seen pretty general geometric designs used in material culture throughout the Sahara, but if you have access to data on that it would be excellent if we could identify such tribal markings. Thanks very much guys! All the best, Jim

28th January 2007, 06:07 PM	#14
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	info hi , thank you Yes i post information of berber symbol when I have translate it...Azedine , my moroccan friend has find this information on internet (in arabian language) and on his personal books... i post this pommel of koummiya...it is very similar to other koummiya for me!!!!!????

28th January 2007, 06:09 PM	#15
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	this is photo!!! Attached Images

28th January 2007, 06:38 PM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Thanks BerberDagger, I look forward to more on that information! Thats great, you have another one too! Very nice All the best, Jim

28th January 2007, 06:57 PM	#17
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi BerberDagger! Also have a look at this useful site: http://blade.japet.com/koummya.htm Emanuel

29th January 2007, 01:49 AM	#18
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	thanks thanks Jim McDougall and Manolo for information.... I post berber information this week .... but abaut blade of moroccan dagger,for Azedine is not important blade of koummiya becouse berber use not good iron like european blade and much koummiya are confused with tourist item but it is good.... for Azidine this little koummiya is good , not tourist item for exemple...blade is not made with good iron but he tell me that is not important for normal berber people....not scheich or head or rich berber.... sorry for my little english!!! Attached Images

29th January 2007, 03:24 AM	#19
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Like Fenris said, BerberDagger, If you think you could use this knife in a fight, to cut or stab, then it may be good, even if it is made of poor materials. Usually a very thin blade is not useful, it may break more easily than a thick one. Emanuel

1st March 2007, 01:35 AM	#21
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello BerberDagger, Thanks for this, it'll be quite helpful and I think I recognize some symbols that I've seen on some flyssa. All the best, Emanuel