Baluchistan/Omani shamshir

ariel · 2nd January 2021, 06:06 PM

I haven't posted anything new in a while.
So, gentlemen ( and ladies, if Tatiana drops by), here is my new baby.
We have discussed them briefly in the past, and our discussions had a range of contributions from an amusing assertion that Baluch and Baloch were different people to Erik's wonderful picture that nailed down the attribution of these shamshirs to Sindh/ Baluchistan.

In brief: complete with intact scabbard and baldric, Persian wootz blade signed by Muhammad Yusuf Misri (" the Egyptian") as per seller, silver, turquoise, chasing ... in short, the works.

I am very happy: was looking for one of those for a long time and finally got one of a very high quality.

Isn't she pretty? Just adorable:-)

ariel · 2nd January 2021, 06:07 PM

I continue for a while.
How would we date it? My guess 19th century, but Kwiatek can be able to fish out additional info from the stamp.

Battara · 2nd January 2021, 06:26 PM

I usually don't get into this form of shamshir, but Ariel this is a great example! I love the complete mounts and the extra stones in it. The ring on the hilt is a nice touch. The other mounts and the cloth accoutrements are wonderful. Nice wootz blade too.

Are there clearer close ups of the top of the hilt?

Thanks for sharing this piece with us!

TVV · 2nd January 2021, 06:34 PM

Happy New Year Ariel, and congratulations on this excellent acquisition. This is as nice as it can get and I actually liked it more than some other shamshirs that sold for more at the auction, so I think you did really well. I cannot recall others with the original baldric nicely preserved like this.

mariusgmioc · 2nd January 2021, 08:40 PM

Happy New Year!

Wow!

Drabant1701 · 2nd January 2021, 09:42 PM

That is a very nice sword. A sword that complete is a rare find.
Congratulations!

Gonzoadler · 2nd January 2021, 10:56 PM

Great Shamshir.
That is a rich present to yourself, ariel.

ariel · 3rd January 2021, 07:38 AM

No, not to myself.
It was found in the morning of January 1, on the floor near the fireplace.
I am still not sure how it got there
:-)

Battara · 4th January 2021, 12:31 AM

..........and I just got a lump of coal.........

ariel · 4th January 2021, 12:39 AM

That’s because you were a Bad Boy.

( Pause)

But bad boys always win girls ....
( sniff, sniff)...

kronckew · 4th January 2021, 06:03 AM

I didn't even get a lump of coal...

ariel · 4th January 2021, 06:08 AM

Is it because you have a gas fireplace?

Kubur · 4th January 2021, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

No, not to myself.
It was found in the morning of January 1, on the floor near the fireplace.
I am still not sure how it got there
:-)

AMA ZING sword Ariel, TOP quality, I'm even surprised that there is no Balutch attached to it...

Here it's what you get if you have a fireplace...

kronckew · 4th January 2021, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Is it because you have a gas fireplace?

I have gas heating but no fireplace. My Chimney is only a pipe about 3 in. in diameter. I have to leave a window open for Santa.

fernando · 4th January 2021, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

I have gas heating but no fireplace. My Chimney is only a pipe about 3 in. in diameter. I have to leave a window open for Santa.

Too late Wayne; Santa doesn't enter in windows. You've got to have a decent fireplace & chimney built for next Christmas

.

kronckew · 4th January 2021, 06:15 PM

I live in Govt. housing. They won't let me.

I am told by a family that lives in one of our upstairs flats that Santa managed to get in and had some of the milk and donuts the children left for him, and filled their stockings hanging from the book case near the tree, where he left them all presents too.

Santa is just mad at me for not leaving him a bottle of Guinness like before. I drank it myself. He actually did leave me a sharp pointy but it's not an antique. Funny thing is, Santa was dressed in a black & white striped shirt, black trousers, wore a black ski mask and an empty sack with SWAG stencilled on it in his left hand. He had the pointy thing in his right, took one look at me sharpening my axe and dropped it on the floor as he left suddenly through the open window. He's a busy man, I guess, no time to chat. He was running late, it was the night of the 26th. My watch dog, Poppy, watched him the whole time and didn't move a muscle, except to wag her tail. Good dog.

I cried tho. It was only a worn out 'Old Hickory' kitchen knife. next year I'll have a new bottle of Port waiting for us and show him my 20ga. magnum Two-Hole Hammered Coach gun. Hope he doesn't leave so quick. Love the saif by the way.

ariel · 4th January 2021, 07:57 PM

[QUOTE=Kubur]AMA ZING sword Ariel, TOP quality, I'm even surprised that there is no Balutch attached to it...

Here it's what you get if you have a fireplace...

[/
Thanks.

Actually, there was a Baluch holding on to his family treasure, but he was an undocumented alien and I could not employ him as a sword stand. The sword went to the wall, and the disappointed Baluch climbed up the chimney and went home.

ariel · 4th January 2021, 08:06 PM

Kronkew,
I think Santa tried to get in and leave something very good for you, but Poppy wanted to lick him to death. But he is not into dogs, only the reindeer. So he left.

Our mini-schnauzer Snoopy barks to scare the beejeezus out of visitors , and then proceeds to lick them all over.

fernando · 4th January 2021, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... next year I'll have a new bottle of Port waiting for us ...

Forget the Port, Wayne; it will be highly taxed as from this year

. Better take him to pub around the corner for a pint of bitter

.

ALEX · 5th January 2021, 11:43 PM

Ariel, an impressive shamshir. The baldric is awesome. It'd be interesting to hear the opinions on dating, hopefully Kwiatek and others will have more insights. Also, you mentioned Sindh and Baluchistan, and so it is Pakistani, not Indian, right?

ariel · 6th January 2021, 04:15 PM

My best guess it dates to the 19th century.
History of Balochistan is complex. Balochistan belonged to Afghanistan, but eastern Balochistan was captured by Nader Shah and became part of Iran. After the fall of Durrani dynasty, Balochistan became factually independent, but in the 1870s and especially after the second Afghani war it became part of British India with the exception of Gwadar that belonged to Oman. After the great division of British India in 1948 it was captured by Pakistan. Gwadar was sold to Pakistan in 1958, but even now about a third of Omanis are descendants of Baloch immigrants.

Thus, and using our current geography it may be “ Baloch”, “Afghani” Indian”, “Pakistani” or “ Omani”.

Since I place it in the 19th century it could not have been Pakistani: Pakistan did not exist yet. IMHO, the most correct one would be “Indian” or “Omani”. Further hairsplitting: since these swords are usually attributed(!) to Hyderabad in Sindh, we could attribute it to British India. Although, had it been made before the infamous “ Peccavi” ( I have sinned) by general Napier in 1843, we should call it Sindhi.

Go figure....

However, geography and history aside, it carries both “Indian” and Omani features..
Thus, as we have discussed earlier, we can call it Baloch, Hyderabadi, Sindhi, Indo-Arab etc.

I love these mixes, both geographical and repurposed:-)

kronckew · 6th January 2021, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Forget the Port, Wayne; it will be highly taxed as from this year

. Better take him to pub around the corner for a pint of bitter

.

Guinness is better for you. Anyway We should, as a free non-EU nation, negotiate a free trade agreement with the UK's oldest ally, Portugal. Darn the Froggy EU, full speed ahead. Port problem solved...or I could buy a bottle now before the price goes up. (Don't care much for bitter myself. Dunkel Lager or Schwartz Bier, or other stouts are acceptable alternatives tho.)

Kubur · 6th January 2021, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Thus, and using our current geography it may be “ Baloch”, “Afghani” Indian”, “Pakistani” or “ Omani”.

Thus, as we have discussed earlier, we can call it Baloch, Hyderabadi, Sindhi, Indo-Arab etc.

I agree but it seems that Iran/ Persian has been forgotten somewhere.

Let me add

Thus, and using our current geography it may be “ Baloch”, "Farsi", “Afghani” Indian”, “Pakistani” or “ Omani”.

Thus, as we have discussed earlier, we can call it Baloch, Hyderabadi, Sindhi, Indo-Arab Indo-Persian etc.

When you look at the sword: blade, quillons, pommel, leather on the scabbard, the Persian influence is obvious...

ALEX · 6th January 2021, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

... When you look at the sword: blade, quillons, pommel, leather on the scabbard, the Persian influence is obvious...

I had the very same thought, strong Persian influence and Pakistani workmanship. Persia is also closest neighbor to Baluchistan I believe.

ariel · 7th January 2021, 03:55 AM

I might have added Persia, but reconsidered.
The only Persian feature here is the blade ( likely). It might have been forged in India, Afghanistan or locally, in Sindh. Itinerant bladesmiths were dime a dozen in that part of the world. Also, in the 19 century Persian blades were exported in thousands all over Eurasia: Caucasus, Aravia, Ottoman Empire, Afghanistan, India, Russian Empire..
IMHO, the national character of the sword is determined by its furniture. An Indian sword with Persian blade is a “ Tulwar with Persian blade”. Similarly, a Shashka with Persian, German, Russian or Polish blade is still Caucasian and a saber with a bulbous pommel is still an Ottoman Kilij despite a Mamluke blade. I have a couple of Tulwars with British blades, a Moroccan Nimcha with ( what was suggested here) Indian blade, and another one with a likely German trade blade destined for South America, and Ethiopian Gurades with German and Russian blades.
As you can see, I am an adherent of the Polish school of attribution:-)

This saber comes from a part of India, has a typical Sindhi handle, but has Omani feature of silver wire by the crossguard. It has an Arabian baldric instead of Persian suspension rings. Would you invoke Persian connection if the blade had Indian ricasso?
That was my thought.
I am not wedded to it. Would love to discuss and change my opinion.

Kubur · 7th January 2021, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I am not wedded to it. Would love to discuss and change my opinion.

I'm glad to read that.
So let's do it

First, of course, you are right it's a balutch sword.

then

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

IMHO, the national character of the sword is determined by its furniture.
As you can see, I am an adherent of the Polish school of attribution:-)

I agree too. And a Spanish / South American blade on a Moroccan berber sword is a Berber sword...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The only Persian feature here is the blade ( likely).

This saber comes from a part of India, has a typical Sindhi handle, but has Omani feature of silver wire by the crossguard.

It has an Arabian baldric instead of Persian suspension rings.

Here I disagree, you have 2 suspension rings on the scabbard.

The gorgeous baldric was added later.

The leather work and guard look Persian.

I feel that this sword was a Persian shamshir refurbished in Balutchistan, with Omani silver work influences...

ihutch1 · 22nd September 2021, 09:58 AM

Ariel, what a beautiful, complete set. Very lucky!

Apologies for the imposition, but may I request a photo of the back side of the baldric straps? I'm very interested in the design and construction, I'd like to have a go replicating it.

Thanks for sharing this!

CharlesS · 6th April 2022, 05:58 PM

Ariel,

Here is an example I acquired at the Baltimore show. You can see stylistically they are so similar. The baldric is mounted in a different style.

The blade is good quality wootz, but I believe there is something about the cartouches that upset the owner...one has been completely erased, and there seems to have been an attempt to erase the other one above it.

It's always nice when we can find swords so complete.

ariel · 9th April 2022, 07:50 PM

These pommels with down-turned configuration always reminded me of “camel head” Indian ones with “dulla”, a highly unappetizing protrusion of saliva- covered mucosa that appears during camel’s sexual excitement.

What do females find attractive about it, and why could not a male just hold a bouquet of roses in his mouth instead, makes sense only to a camel....

CharlesS · 10th April 2022, 01:15 PM

Ariel, it's a shame that's all your saw in that sword. What a sad, loathsome, example it is!

2nd January 2021, 06:06 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Baluchistan/Omani shamshir I haven't posted anything new in a while. So, gentlemen ( and ladies, if Tatiana drops by), here is my new baby. We have discussed them briefly in the past, and our discussions had a range of contributions from an amusing assertion that Baluch and Baloch were different people to Erik's wonderful picture that nailed down the attribution of these shamshirs to Sindh/ Baluchistan. In brief: complete with intact scabbard and baldric, Persian wootz blade signed by Muhammad Yusuf Misri (" the Egyptian") as per seller, silver, turquoise, chasing ... in short, the works. I am very happy: was looking for one of those for a long time and finally got one of a very high quality. Isn't she pretty? Just adorable:-) Attached Images

2nd January 2021, 06:07 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I continue for a while. How would we date it? My guess 19th century, but Kwiatek can be able to fish out additional info from the stamp. Attached Images

4th January 2021, 06:15 PM	#16
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	I live in Govt. housing. They won't let me. I am told by a family that lives in one of our upstairs flats that Santa managed to get in and had some of the milk and donuts the children left for him, and filled their stockings hanging from the book case near the tree, where he left them all presents too. Santa is just mad at me for not leaving him a bottle of Guinness like before. I drank it myself. He actually did leave me a sharp pointy but it's not an antique. Funny thing is, Santa was dressed in a black & white striped shirt, black trousers, wore a black ski mask and an empty sack with SWAG stencilled on it in his left hand. He had the pointy thing in his right, took one look at me sharpening my axe and dropped it on the floor as he left suddenly through the open window. He's a busy man, I guess, no time to chat. He was running late, it was the night of the 26th. My watch dog, Poppy, watched him the whole time and didn't move a muscle, except to wag her tail. Good dog. I cried tho. It was only a worn out 'Old Hickory' kitchen knife. next year I'll have a new bottle of Port waiting for us and show him my 20ga. magnum Two-Hole Hammered Coach gun. Hope he doesn't leave so quick. Love the saif by the way. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 4th January 2021 at 06:36 PM.

7th January 2021, 03:55 AM	#25
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I might have added Persia, but reconsidered. The only Persian feature here is the blade ( likely). It might have been forged in India, Afghanistan or locally, in Sindh. Itinerant bladesmiths were dime a dozen in that part of the world. Also, in the 19 century Persian blades were exported in thousands all over Eurasia: Caucasus, Aravia, Ottoman Empire, Afghanistan, India, Russian Empire.. IMHO, the national character of the sword is determined by its furniture. An Indian sword with Persian blade is a “ Tulwar with Persian blade”. Similarly, a Shashka with Persian, German, Russian or Polish blade is still Caucasian and a saber with a bulbous pommel is still an Ottoman Kilij despite a Mamluke blade. I have a couple of Tulwars with British blades, a Moroccan Nimcha with ( what was suggested here) Indian blade, and another one with a likely German trade blade destined for South America, and Ethiopian Gurades with German and Russian blades. As you can see, I am an adherent of the Polish school of attribution:-) This saber comes from a part of India, has a typical Sindhi handle, but has Omani feature of silver wire by the crossguard. It has an Arabian baldric instead of Persian suspension rings. Would you invoke Persian connection if the blade had Indian ricasso? That was my thought. I am not wedded to it. Would love to discuss and change my opinion. Last edited by ariel; 7th January 2021 at 04:20 AM.

6th April 2022, 05:58 PM	#28
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Ariel, Here is an example I acquired at the Baltimore show. You can see stylistically they are so similar. The baldric is mounted in a different style. The blade is good quality wootz, but I believe there is something about the cartouches that upset the owner...one has been completely erased, and there seems to have been an attempt to erase the other one above it. It's always nice when we can find swords so complete. Attached Images

2nd January 2021, 06:26 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I usually don't get into this form of shamshir, but Ariel this is a great example! I love the complete mounts and the extra stones in it. The ring on the hilt is a nice touch. The other mounts and the cloth accoutrements are wonderful. Nice wootz blade too. Are there clearer close ups of the top of the hilt? Thanks for sharing this piece with us!

2nd January 2021, 06:34 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Happy New Year Ariel, and congratulations on this excellent acquisition. This is as nice as it can get and I actually liked it more than some other shamshirs that sold for more at the auction, so I think you did really well. I cannot recall others with the original baldric nicely preserved like this.

2nd January 2021, 08:40 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Happy New Year! Wow!

2nd January 2021, 09:42 PM	#6
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	That is a very nice sword. A sword that complete is a rare find. Congratulations!

2nd January 2021, 10:56 PM	#7
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 244	Great Shamshir. That is a rich present to yourself, ariel.

3rd January 2021, 07:38 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No, not to myself. It was found in the morning of January 1, on the floor near the fireplace. I am still not sure how it got there :-)

4th January 2021, 12:31 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	..........and I just got a lump of coal.........

4th January 2021, 12:39 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	That’s because you were a Bad Boy. ( Pause) But bad boys always win girls .... ( sniff, sniff)...

4th January 2021, 06:03 AM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	I didn't even get a lump of coal...

4th January 2021, 06:08 AM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Is it because you have a gas fireplace?

4th January 2021, 07:57 PM	#17
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	[QUOTE=Kubur]AMA ZING sword Ariel, TOP quality, I'm even surprised that there is no Balutch attached to it... Here it's what you get if you have a fireplace... [/ Thanks. Actually, there was a Baluch holding on to his family treasure, but he was an undocumented alien and I could not employ him as a sword stand. The sword went to the wall, and the disappointed Baluch climbed up the chimney and went home.

4th January 2021, 08:06 PM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kronkew, I think Santa tried to get in and leave something very good for you, but Poppy wanted to lick him to death. But he is not into dogs, only the reindeer. So he left. Our mini-schnauzer Snoopy barks to scare the beejeezus out of visitors , and then proceeds to lick them all over.

5th January 2021, 11:43 PM	#20
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Ariel, an impressive shamshir. The baldric is awesome. It'd be interesting to hear the opinions on dating, hopefully Kwiatek and others will have more insights. Also, you mentioned Sindh and Baluchistan, and so it is Pakistani, not Indian, right?

6th January 2021, 04:15 PM	#21
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My best guess it dates to the 19th century. History of Balochistan is complex. Balochistan belonged to Afghanistan, but eastern Balochistan was captured by Nader Shah and became part of Iran. After the fall of Durrani dynasty, Balochistan became factually independent, but in the 1870s and especially after the second Afghani war it became part of British India with the exception of Gwadar that belonged to Oman. After the great division of British India in 1948 it was captured by Pakistan. Gwadar was sold to Pakistan in 1958, but even now about a third of Omanis are descendants of Baloch immigrants. Thus, and using our current geography it may be “ Baloch”, “Afghani” Indian”, “Pakistani” or “ Omani”. Since I place it in the 19th century it could not have been Pakistani: Pakistan did not exist yet. IMHO, the most correct one would be “Indian” or “Omani”. Further hairsplitting: since these swords are usually attributed(!) to Hyderabad in Sindh, we could attribute it to British India. Although, had it been made before the infamous “ Peccavi” ( I have sinned) by general Napier in 1843, we should call it Sindhi. Go figure.... However, geography and history aside, it carries both “Indian” and Omani features.. Thus, as we have discussed earlier, we can call it Baloch, Hyderabadi, Sindhi, Indo-Arab etc. I love these mixes, both geographical and repurposed:-)

22nd September 2021, 09:58 AM	#27
ihutch1 Member Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 6	Ariel, what a beautiful, complete set. Very lucky! Apologies for the imposition, but may I request a photo of the back side of the baldric straps? I'm very interested in the design and construction, I'd like to have a go replicating it. Thanks for sharing this!

9th April 2022, 07:50 PM	#29
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	These pommels with down-turned configuration always reminded me of “camel head” Indian ones with “dulla”, a highly unappetizing protrusion of saliva- covered mucosa that appears during camel’s sexual excitement. What do females find attractive about it, and why could not a male just hold a bouquet of roses in his mouth instead, makes sense only to a camel....

10th April 2022, 01:15 PM	#30
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Ariel, it's a shame that's all your saw in that sword. What a sad, loathsome, example it is!