A what is it ? (non weapon)

[katana]

Hope you don't mind me posting this. An Islamic (?) 'belt hanging' container ??? Although not a weapon I have a feeling that it may be 'warrior' related.

Brass, hand embossed lidded container with, I think, a great deal of age. The leather thong may be a hanging aid from a belt. The back of the 'container' is slightly concave suggesting it would 'fit' more comfortably against the arm or leg.

OAL 7" (18cms)

Any suggestions to what it is or what it may have contained contain (did a 'smell' test on the inside ...nothing obvious. Although my 'other half' said it smelt like old museums ....a new technical term

Any ideas or comments ? Thank you

Regards David

[dennee]

It looks like a pen case or something similar.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by dennee

It looks like a pen case or something similar.

I had similar thoughts.
Looks possibly Chinese or far eastern, possibly for brushes?

[fearn]

I've seen similar shaped containers used with Japanese kimonos to replace pockets. That said, the designs do not look Japanese, only the shape and the way the strap is rigged.

F

[katana]

Thanks for the ideas, Denee and Gene....Fearn I think you are referring to 'Inro' ....this is the sort of thing I had in mind. Clearly not Japanese but perhaps based on the same idea . Inro were used to carry medicine, money, notes etc.
Definately seems to sit nicely when suspended from a belt (the concave back 'holds it 'against the hip/thigh ) Perhaps a pen/brush case but carried (on a belt) and shown in public may suggest a 'scribe'.

Not certain as to my initial Islamic origin although the top and bottom strongly remind me of Moorish/Mughal architecteral domes.
There is smooth 'wear' and much less patina on the concave side ....suggesting this area was 'rubbed' regulary , perhaps against clothing as the owner walked. If based on the idea of a 'Inro' perhaps Chinese as suggested.

Please keep those ideas coming

Kind Regards David

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by katana

Thanks for the ideas, Denee and Gene....Fearn I think you are referring to 'Inro' ....this is the sort of thing I had in mind. Clearly not Japanese but perhaps based on the same idea . Inro were used to carry medicine, money, notes etc.
Definately seems to sit nicely when suspended from a belt (the concave back 'holds it 'against the hip/thigh ) Perhaps a pen/brush case but carried (on a belt) and shown in public may suggest a 'scribe'.

Not certain as to my initial Islamic origin although the top and bottom strongly remind me of Moorish/Mughal architecteral domes.
There is smooth 'wear' and much less patina on the concave side ....suggesting this area was 'rubbed' regulary , perhaps against clothing as the owner walked. If based on the idea of a 'Inro' perhaps Chinese as suggested.

Please keep those ideas coming

Kind Regards David

I gotta say the more I look the more the design looks Chinese. The scrolling smoke/flame the geometric edge.
Interesting little thing

[Jim McDougall]

David, this really is interesting, and as Gene has noted, there seems to be a sort of mix in the motif with both Chinese as seen in the center, and the Mosque type shapes at top and bottom. This container may be for containing an amulet, written on paper and folded or rolled up and inserted.
There are a number of Muslim peoples in China, especially in the frontier areas to the west, such as the Uighurs and Hui, and I wonder if perhaps this might account for the combined styling motifs.

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Jim ,
thank you for your input, certainly a conundrum. The 'meander' motif (border) in China is symbolic of 'clouds and thunder' . Its the 'mosque dome' ends that are 'throwing me'.....during the construction these ends would be much more difficult to create....which suggests that they are highly symbolic to the piece. I think, maybe a strong religious reason ....further suggesting that it may have contained something of religious importance (to the owner) Interesting that you mentioned a written 'amulet' ...my initial thoughts were that it was used to carry prayers or verses from the Koran...but that was just a 'feeling'. Hence my vague reference to being 'warrior related' ....I can easily imagine, just before battle an individual praying to God for victory and carrying those prayers into battle as a protective talisman.

I would imagine that there is the possibillity that this piece could even have originated on the Indian side of the border with China,

Kind Regards David

[colin henshaw]

Hi

I think its most likely Tibetan, for containing either pens/brushes or maybe fire-lighting equipment.

Regards.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Jim ,
thank you for your input, certainly a conundrum. The 'meander' motif (border) in China is symbolic of 'clouds and thunder' . Its the 'mosque dome' ends that are 'throwing me'.....during the construction these ends would be much more difficult to create....which suggests that they are highly symbolic to the piece. I think, maybe a strong religious reason ....further suggesting that it may have contained something of religious importance (to the owner) Interesting that you mentioned a written 'amulet' ...my initial thoughts were that it was used to carry prayers or verses from the Koran...but that was just a 'feeling'. Hence my vague reference to being 'warrior related' ....I can easily imagine, just before battle an individual praying to God for victory and carrying those prayers into battle as a protective talisman.

I would imagine that there is the possibillity that this piece could even have originated on the Indian side of the border with China,

Kind Regards David

Thanks David, "clouds and thunder'...thats the term I was looking for! I kept trying to think of, but my mental file cabinet kept coming up with 'taotie'!
Actually these 'amulets' were as I understand, kinds of prayers or verses written by a Mullah on paper or other material and placed inside these kinds of containers. In other situations it seems these kinds of containers may have been used in Islamic context in other regions as well in that way, and I think in North Africa.
Actually one reference I have seen notes that such amulets were placed in these kinds of containers (not knowing visually what these may have looked like) but around the necks of livestock and other owned animals in remote areas in Asia for thier protection.
Obviously it cannot be certain if this is such a device, and Colin's suggestion is extremely well placed as well, as matches and/or brushes were important in temples and religious centers. I always wish I had my small library of "Arts of Asia' magazine issues with me..they always had amazing articles on material culture esoterica from all of these regions.

All the best,
Jim

[David]

Given the size of this object i would suggest that it probably had a more utilitarian purpose that to hold prayers. We can really only guess at his point what it's owner kept inside. Could have been writing implements, tobacco, fire starting tool, etc. I can't see that a 7" container would be necessary for carrying paper prayers though...

[Gustav]

sorry, I couldn't resist...

Here some information from "Indonesian ornamental design" by van der Hoop, 1949, which still is a reference work for this region, and at least the kris hilt is coming from the neighborhood: the whole shape of this panel he calls a "mirror panel", and it is a chinese motif according to him, mostly found with other, like rock and cloud border, in Cirebon. Of course Ming ceramic is full of this kind of panels.

Of course this motif seems to be of Cetral-Asian origin; China absorbed much from the cultures of this region, particularly in the period of Yuan dynasty, many people in the administration at this time were muslims. Later many of chinese seamen, which participated in the great expeditions were muslims, most famous beeing Zheng He. Indonesian scholar Slamet Muljana writes: "Zheng He built Chinese Muslim communities first in Palembang, then in San Fa (West Kalimantan), subsequently he founded similar communities along the shores of Java, the Malay Peninsula and the Philippines. They preached Islam according to the Hanafi school of thought and in Chinese language."

It probably would be a long shot (as Gavin says ), yet the origin of the motiv IN the panel could most probably be the tree of life, at least regarding kris hilt.

(kris hilt is from: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...579#post120579)

[katana]

Originally Posted by Gustav

sorry, I couldn't resist...

It probably would be a long shot (as Gavin says ), yet the origin of the motiv IN the panel could most probably be the tree of life, at least regarding kris hilt.

Excellent info Gustav ....I'm glad you couldn't resist Thank you

Kind Regards David

[katana]

Gustav,
I just want to add that you have brilliantly shown how studying ethnographic weapons is strongly linked to the decoration and manufacture of other ethnographic 'non-weapon' items.....and have , in 'one stroke' validated this thread and enhanced another.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

Well done

Kind Regards David

[Gustav]

David,
thank you very much for the kind words! Actually my posts in both threads are saying almost nothing serious regarding the objects. I just sometimes strongly feel the lack of elementar ethnologistic studies in my life, with some basic rules, understandings ... , a serious collector should be at least amateur ethnologist.

Kind regards,
Gustav

[Tim Simmons]

" a serious collector should be at least amateur ethnologist."

Here,here!!!!

[katana]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

" a serious collector should be at least amateur ethnologist."

Here,here!!!!

Agree totally

[Jim McDougall]

I entirely agree with you guys, and Gustav I am completely in accord with David....brilliantly done!!! and the words of Tim are extremely well placed. I have always believed that in studying ethnographic weapons, the key importance of the weapons is inherently linked to virtually many aspects of the material culture in one way or another. I cannot even name the many instances where motif or symbolism found on weapons is discovered on items which have little to do with warfare.

In many cases we search for clues in books that cover art,religion, superstitions, metalwork, history, archaeology, metaphysics, and as wonderfully illustrated by Nidhi and Jens some time ago...nusimatics.

You guys have perfectly illustrated a most important tenet in the serious study of ethnographic weapons here, thank you all so much!!!

All the best,
Jim

[colin henshaw]

Hi

Here are a couple of illustrations from "British Museum Handbook to the Ethnographical Collections" 1925

Regards.

[katana]

Hi Jim ,
very well put, Holmes .

Hi Colin ,
thanks for the posting the pictures, yes I can see design elements that are very similar.

Reviewing the pictures posted by Gustav I now believe the 'mosque domed' ends may be a red herring. Looking at the designs on the Kris hilt and the 'container' the shaped ends may be just a continuation of the imbossed design.

Kind Regards David

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