Unique Dual Ignition South India Long Gun

rickystl · 29th September 2018, 03:56 PM

Hello All.

I keep telling myself not to buy any more guns for a while.

But I simply could not pass this one up.

I bought this from a long time dealer in antique guns. I'll post here his original description with lots of pictures. And I will add my own comments on my next post. A most interesting gun.

Rick

" In researching this particular long arm which is a unique "dual ignition" musket from the early 1800s - that is a combination matchlock/flintlock arm - we have found that there is only one place in the world that this weapon originated. An exceptional example of superior workmanship, the hardwood stock of characteristic form, with stout brass mounts showing European influence, including, trigger, triggerguard with sling loop, brass sideplate, and profiled barrelbands. Mounted with two ignition mechanisms, the traditional Indian matchlock and a European-type flintlock, each with its individual trigger. The lock incised with an insignia emulating the British East India Company sigil. The fine barrel is forged of dramatically-detailed pattern-welded damascus steel with swamped muzzle. Robert Elgood in his book on Islamic arms mentioned that the double-lock system was introduced to the Punjab during the time of Ranjit Singh by a Hidustani smith, Mirza Bharmar, by whose name the weapon was thereafter known and produced in Lahore (KAR KHANE YE LAHUR (Arms Works of Lahore.). See R. Elgood, Firearms of the Islamic World, (Tauris: London) p. 176-77 for additional data. Stock is in fine, sound condition with originalramrod intact. This musket was developed at the Bharma Lahora Arsenal circa 1809 and, as a result the weapon is known by that name. When flintlock not in use the hammer for the matchlock swings over from the left side of stock and the trigger behind the trigger guard activates that action. There is also a large brass flash plate which appears to protect the shooter from harm.The musket measures 65" overall with 50-1/2" barrel. "

rickystl · 29th September 2018, 03:58 PM

MORE PICS.......

rickystl · 29th September 2018, 04:01 PM

STILL MORE.......

David R · 29th September 2018, 09:54 PM

That is a fantastic piece! Very nice indeed.

kahnjar1 · 29th September 2018, 10:16 PM

kahnjar1 · 29th September 2018, 10:18 PM

Wow!!! What an interesting and unusual gun. Condition looks rather good also.
The sellers comments seem in line with those of Elgood, in terms of where this style was developed, but though DEVELOPED in Lahore, this one has a typical Coorg shaped butt end, which would suggest that it comes (as stated in your Post title) from South India.
I note that the lock appears to be a genuine EIC one, rather than a local copy.

Sorry for the emojis above. I am having computer problems. Unfortunately there does not seem to be a facility to delete replies alltogether.

Stu

Kubur · 30th September 2018, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hello All.

I keep telling myself not to buy any more guns for a while.

But I simply could not pass this one up.

"

Hi Rick

It would have been criminal to miss that one.
Double lock, the barrel, the little stones, just unique.
Congrats

Kubur

rickystl · 30th September 2018, 10:20 PM

Thank you all for your comments. As Stu mentions, the butt stock style is typical of matchlocks from the Coorg area of South India. As well, to me, the decoration also looks South Indian.
The flintlock is in fact a genuine EIC lock, with this style generally used for trade, The prancing lion will be more visible after cleaning. Notice the extra tapered frizzen that was popular in the South similar to their pistols. The lock works perfectly. Just needs cleaning and the missing mainspring screw replaced (I have an original).
Once the hammer of the flintlock is at half-cock and out of the way, the serpentine for the match piviots to the right and aligns it over the pan in a normal position. Very clever. And notice how the trigger for the flintlock is off set to the right to allow movement of the serpentine. All a bit complicated, but it works.
The barrel still retains it's gold inlay. The rear and front sights are done in more of a Ottoman/Persian style. But the muzzle style and damascus are done in typical Indian. The vent hole looks like it was burned out from usage and welded and re-drilled sometime back in the period. I've seen this before.
So overall, it just needs 2/3 small repairs, a bit of cleaning, and the missing glass stones replaced.
This gun is a good example to show how even well into the flintlock period the Indian Continent was still not willing to discard their matchlocks.

Rick

rickystl · 30th September 2018, 10:22 PM

A COUPLE MORE PICS.......ONE SHOWING THE OPEN LOCK MORTICE....

kahnjar1 · 30th September 2018, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

A COUPLE MORE PICS.......ONE SHOWING THE OPEN LOCK MORTICE....

Hi Rick,
Any idea as to the reason for the hole thru the match cock? I have not seen this on matchlocks before.
Stu

rickystl · 12th October 2018, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Rick,
Any idea as to the reason for the hole thru the match cock? I have not seen this on matchlocks before.
Stu

Hi Stu

You noticed that too. I have thought about that, but don't have any idea. When I get to the cleaning and repairs I'll look at things more closely and see if I can figure it out. The hole was obviously intentionally made for some purpose.

Rick

kahnjar1 · 13th October 2018, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu

You noticed that too. I have thought about that, but don't have any idea. When I get to the cleaning and repairs I'll look at things more closely and see if I can figure it out. The hole was obviously intentionally made for some purpose.

Rick

I had thought it might be to retain the match cord by threading it thru, but not sure if the diam of the hole is sufficient.
Stu

Philip · 20th October 2018, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Rick,
Any idea as to the reason for the hole thru the match cock? I have not seen this on matchlocks before.
Stu

I wonder if the hole is a provision for a rudimentary safety -- will a transverse pin effectively block the serpentine from fully descending towards the pan? Come to think of it, the touchhole pricker on its chain might serve the purpose rather well. Perhaps the gun's owner thought that since the flintlock has a half-cock detent to lock the trigger, he might as well have something to take care of the serpentine as well. Just a thought... What do you guys think?

rickystl · 16th November 2018, 04:41 PM

Hi Philip and Stu

I didn't realize there was an additional post on this Thread.

After further thought, I believe the small hole had some type of pin device that was inserted to keep the serpentine arm positioned in a right-ward position so as to align the matchcord with the center of the pan while in use. What the device would look like I have no idea.

Speaking of vent picks.....I have 4/5 original Torador style vent picks in my collection. So I think I'll use one to suspend on this gun, making the lock area even more crowded. LOL

After a couple minor repairs and cleaning, and replacing the missing stones, this should turn out nice. Glad I found this one.

Rick

29th September 2018, 03:56 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Unique Dual Ignition South India Long Gun Hello All. I keep telling myself not to buy any more guns for a while. But I simply could not pass this one up. I bought this from a long time dealer in antique guns. I'll post here his original description with lots of pictures. And I will add my own comments on my next post. A most interesting gun. Rick " In researching this particular long arm which is a unique "dual ignition" musket from the early 1800s - that is a combination matchlock/flintlock arm - we have found that there is only one place in the world that this weapon originated. An exceptional example of superior workmanship, the hardwood stock of characteristic form, with stout brass mounts showing European influence, including, trigger, triggerguard with sling loop, brass sideplate, and profiled barrelbands. Mounted with two ignition mechanisms, the traditional Indian matchlock and a European-type flintlock, each with its individual trigger. The lock incised with an insignia emulating the British East India Company sigil. The fine barrel is forged of dramatically-detailed pattern-welded damascus steel with swamped muzzle. Robert Elgood in his book on Islamic arms mentioned that the double-lock system was introduced to the Punjab during the time of Ranjit Singh by a Hidustani smith, Mirza Bharmar, by whose name the weapon was thereafter known and produced in Lahore (KAR KHANE YE LAHUR (Arms Works of Lahore.). See R. Elgood, Firearms of the Islamic World, (Tauris: London) p. 176-77 for additional data. Stock is in fine, sound condition with originalramrod intact. This musket was developed at the Bharma Lahora Arsenal circa 1809 and, as a result the weapon is known by that name. When flintlock not in use the hammer for the matchlock swings over from the left side of stock and the trigger behind the trigger guard activates that action. There is also a large brass flash plate which appears to protect the shooter from harm.The musket measures 65" overall with 50-1/2" barrel. " Attached Images

29th September 2018, 03:58 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	MORE PICS....... Attached Images

29th September 2018, 04:01 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	STILL MORE....... Attached Images

30th September 2018, 10:22 PM	#9
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	A COUPLE MORE PICS.......ONE SHOWING THE OPEN LOCK MORTICE.... Attached Images

29th September 2018, 09:54 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	That is a fantastic piece! Very nice indeed.

29th September 2018, 10:16 PM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739

29th September 2018, 10:18 PM	#6
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Wow!!! What an interesting and unusual gun. Condition looks rather good also. The sellers comments seem in line with those of Elgood, in terms of where this style was developed, but though DEVELOPED in Lahore, this one has a typical Coorg shaped butt end, which would suggest that it comes (as stated in your Post title) from South India. I note that the lock appears to be a genuine EIC one, rather than a local copy. Sorry for the emojis above. I am having computer problems. Unfortunately there does not seem to be a facility to delete replies alltogether. Stu

30th September 2018, 10:20 PM	#8
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Thank you all for your comments. As Stu mentions, the butt stock style is typical of matchlocks from the Coorg area of South India. As well, to me, the decoration also looks South Indian. The flintlock is in fact a genuine EIC lock, with this style generally used for trade, The prancing lion will be more visible after cleaning. Notice the extra tapered frizzen that was popular in the South similar to their pistols. The lock works perfectly. Just needs cleaning and the missing mainspring screw replaced (I have an original). Once the hammer of the flintlock is at half-cock and out of the way, the serpentine for the match piviots to the right and aligns it over the pan in a normal position. Very clever. And notice how the trigger for the flintlock is off set to the right to allow movement of the serpentine. All a bit complicated, but it works. The barrel still retains it's gold inlay. The rear and front sights are done in more of a Ottoman/Persian style. But the muzzle style and damascus are done in typical Indian. The vent hole looks like it was burned out from usage and welded and re-drilled sometime back in the period. I've seen this before. So overall, it just needs 2/3 small repairs, a bit of cleaning, and the missing glass stones replaced. This gun is a good example to show how even well into the flintlock period the Indian Continent was still not willing to discard their matchlocks. Rick

16th November 2018, 04:41 PM	#14
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Philip and Stu I didn't realize there was an additional post on this Thread. After further thought, I believe the small hole had some type of pin device that was inserted to keep the serpentine arm positioned in a right-ward position so as to align the matchcord with the center of the pan while in use. What the device would look like I have no idea. Speaking of vent picks.....I have 4/5 original Torador style vent picks in my collection. So I think I'll use one to suspend on this gun, making the lock area even more crowded. LOL After a couple minor repairs and cleaning, and replacing the missing stones, this should turn out nice. Glad I found this one. Rick