Moro Kris

Spunjer · 19th June 2011, 09:44 PM

been looking for a kamagong ball pommel for awhile. as far as beauty, they're pretty much up there with the junggayan stuff, i think. the unique talismanic symbols on the blade is a plus. what's interesting is an unusual mark by the elephant trunk which looks like the roman numeral 1. but most of all, it has a provenance.
a kalis given by HRH Sultan Jamalul-Kiram II to (then) Capt. Charles Howland

Maurice · 19th June 2011, 09:54 PM

Hey....This is not a barung? ;-)

Beautifull kris Ron.
you keep amazing me!

Can you tell us some more about the provenance?

Maurice

Battara · 19th June 2011, 10:50 PM

Nice piece - glad you finally got one........

Silver mounts look nice and shiny...........

Sajen · 20th June 2011, 12:35 AM

Very nice kris!

And a beautiful pommel.

Regards,

Detlef

Spunjer · 20th June 2011, 06:03 AM

thanks detlef... of course jose, gotta bring it back to its glory days, hehe.
maurice, i'm still researching this capt. howland. i know he was stationed in luzon in the early days of the phil-am war, but don't know anything after that..

mrwizard · 20th June 2011, 10:25 AM

Very nice Kris, the silver and the (ebony?) pommel match perfectly

Howland published an article about the philippine insurrection. If you can find a copy this would make a nice addition to the kris.
Howland, Charles R. "The Philippine Insurrection of 1899: A Study." Infantry Journal XXX (Apr 1927): pp. 395-406. Per.

Best Regards,
Thilo

migueldiaz · 20th June 2011, 10:43 AM

nice!!

Spunjer · 20th June 2011, 03:54 PM

thanks thilo! i will check up on that...
@ lorenz: lol, i keep looking for the "like" button for your post, but i just remember, this ain't facebook...

migueldiaz · 20th June 2011, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

@ lorenz: lol, i keep looking for the "like" button for your post, but i just remember, this ain't facebook...

haha, same here earlier. when i saw the kris, my pavlovian reflex was to look for the "like" button! we are spending way too much time on facebook, my friend

Lew · 20th June 2011, 04:55 PM

Ok I have one problem with a the sword the silver seems quite new to me?

VVV · 20th June 2011, 05:27 PM

Very nice kris, pommel, provenance and plaque!!!

Michael

David · 20th June 2011, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Ok I have one problem with a the sword the silver seems quite new to me?

I have to agree. Was this work recently done?

Spunjer · 20th June 2011, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Ok I have one problem with a the sword the silver seems quite new to me?

i'm thinking this particular kalis has been in storage for a while, lew. originally, the handle was badly tarnished, and in the spirit of the Silver Surfer and other krises that's in my collection before him, i was obliged to blinged it up. of note is a rattan band i noticed that was used to wrap the handle prior to applying the silver bands...

Spunjer · 20th June 2011, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I have to agree. Was this work recently done?

no sir. everything is original as far as i'm concern.

VANDOO · 20th June 2011, 07:21 PM

CONGRADULATIONS ITS A BEAUTY AND UNUSUAL TO HAVE PROVENANCE SO THATS A BIT OF EXTRA ICING ON THE CAKE.

HOW LONG IS THE KERIS? PERHAPS THE BRASS PLATE WITH PROVENANCE IS VERY LARGE AND MAKES THE KERIS LOOK SMALLER THAN USUAL.
I WONDERED ABOUT THE HANDLE WHEN I FIRST SAW IT BUT ONE PICTURE SHOWING THE IVORY LAID TO REST MY SUSPECIONS AS TO AGE. IT IS POSSIBLE A FANCIER HANDLE MAY HAVE BEEN PUT WITH A OLDER BLADE TO MAKE IT MORE WORTHY FOR PRESENTATION BUT IF SO IT WOULD STILL HAVE BEEN DONE IN 1902.

mross · 20th June 2011, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

been looking for a kamagong ball pommel for awhile. as far as beauty, they're pretty much up there with the junggayan stuff, i think. the unique talismanic symbols on the blade is a plus. what's interesting is an unusual mark by the elephant trunk which looks like the roman numeral 1. but most of all, it has a provenance.
a kalis given by HRH Sultan Jamalul-Kiram II to (then) Capt. Charles Howland

Spunjer,
I agree. These are really nice looking and few and far between. I don't usually carp over lost auctions, but my biggest regret is one of these I lost out several years ago. Even posted about it. Nice find. Good provenance. All around good deal.

Spunjer · 20th June 2011, 08:57 PM

thanks mross... i think these types (kamagong and ivory dots) are a class by themselves. it screams strictly sulu.
vandoo, the blade is about 21 inches, average in size. the plate is indeed on the larger side. interesting in that the Moro Campaign in Mindanao was in full swing (in 1902). i'm wondering what this captain howland was doing in Sulu. as a captain at that time, i'm assuming with that rank, he's a company commander, unless he's some sort of an executive officer to garner a gift from the sultan himself. nevertheless, the kris came with some pretty good historical trivia with it.

CharlesS · 21st June 2011, 07:26 PM

Very NOice!

Spunjer · 26th June 2011, 09:50 PM

well, seems to be moro stuff doesn't garner much discussion around here anymore, but just in case someone google Capt. Charles R. Howland and this thread pops up, i would like to add this information for future reference:

Quote:

Born in Jefferson, Ohio. Graduated from USMA West Point in June of 1891 and assigned to 20th Infantry Regiment. During the Philippine-American War, a 1st Lt., he was appointed a Captain of U.S. Volunteers in the 28th US Volunteer Infantry Regiment. The 28th fought in Luzon and northern Mindanao and was decommissioned in May of 1901, which is when his volunteer commission expired. He received a permanent promotion to Captain in the 27th Infantry Regiment on Feb 2, 1901. The 27th Infantry was stationed across Moroland in early 1901 and a battalion was at Jolo.

Nonoy Tan · 27th June 2011, 02:20 AM

A very good specimen of history!

Battara · 27th June 2011, 03:15 AM

Again what is great (besides the bling

) is the fact that you have great provenance with it.

Spunjer · 27th June 2011, 04:07 PM

That's one thing about moro weapons: tho we know each are custom made to an individual, we may never know the name of the original owner. Unlike the yataghans and some other middle eastern swords where the name of the original owner were somtimes found on the blade, it's not so with the moro stuff. There's only two other moro weapo
ns i've seen and read that could be attributed to the original owner: a dagger that was given by Datu Piang to Webb Hayes, and a kris that belonged to Datu Natangkup that's in the National Museum in the philippines, as mentioned on cato's book.
I do find the blade interesting in that if we go by what cato wrote, it's a mindanao blade...

Battara · 27th June 2011, 05:42 PM

There was also a lot of trade between Sulu and the Maguindanao............

Spunjer · 27th June 2011, 06:53 PM

That would have been my first impulse, jose, but i just find it hard to believe that all blades that are misplaced based on cato's categorization can be easily dismissed as a "traded blade."

Battara · 27th June 2011, 08:43 PM

Not saying all are trade blades but certainly there was trade between these areas. Note that for example Magindanao pieces do also have woven silver bands like the Sulu.

I also wonder if this could be a type of cross over of which Cato is not aware.

We certainly need more information than Cato provides. Wish Cecil would come out with his book...

I will say that the okir work on the blade and on the silver work does not appear to be Maguinanao or Maranao.

David · 28th June 2011, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I will say that the okir work on the blade and on the silver work does not appear to be Maguinanao or Maranao.

Frankly this is part of why i wondered if the silver work could be a later addition. That and the fact that the quality of the work does not seem up to the standard i would expect on an old presentation piece.

David · 28th June 2011, 12:34 AM

The first close-up on the asang-asang also seems to show that this is not the original clamp and perhaps not the original hilt.

Rick · 28th June 2011, 02:49 AM

Re pic #4 ; couldn't that just be where the patina was left ?

A shadow line from a not-so-complete clean ?

Spunjer · 28th June 2011, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Frankly this is part of why i wondered if the silver work could be a later addition. That and the fact that the quality of the work does not seem up to the standard i would expect on an old presentation piece.

well, therein lies the problem, david. what's your expectation of what a presentation piece would look like? i mentioned a provenanced piece on my earlier post, so i'm posting the dagger that was given to Lt. Col. Webb Hayes by Datu Piang. would you doubt that as well?

Quote:

The first close-up on the asang-asang also seems to show that this is not the original clamp and perhaps not the original hilt

perhaps i'm missing something, or you see something that i don't, but what makes you think the asang-asang and the handle are not original?

Quote:

I will say that the okir work on the blade and on the silver work does not appear to be Maguinanao or Maranao.

right you are, jose. the symbols on the blade and the silverwork on the bands screams sulu.

Battara · 28th June 2011, 03:30 AM

Does this datu Piang gunong have a silver hilt?

19th June 2011, 09:44 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Moro Kris been looking for a kamagong ball pommel for awhile. as far as beauty, they're pretty much up there with the junggayan stuff, i think. the unique talismanic symbols on the blade is a plus. what's interesting is an unusual mark by the elephant trunk which looks like the roman numeral 1. but most of all, it has a provenance. a kalis given by HRH Sultan Jamalul-Kiram II to (then) Capt. Charles Howland Attached Images

19th June 2011, 09:54 PM	#2
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,352	Hey....This is not a barung? ;-) Beautifull kris Ron. you keep amazing me! Can you tell us some more about the provenance? Maurice

19th June 2011, 10:50 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Nice piece - glad you finally got one........ Silver mounts look nice and shiny...........

20th June 2011, 12:35 AM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	Very nice kris! And a beautiful pommel. Regards, Detlef

20th June 2011, 06:03 AM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks detlef... of course jose, gotta bring it back to its glory days, hehe. maurice, i'm still researching this capt. howland. i know he was stationed in luzon in the early days of the phil-am war, but don't know anything after that..

20th June 2011, 10:25 AM	#6
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Very nice Kris, the silver and the (ebony?) pommel match perfectly Howland published an article about the philippine insurrection. If you can find a copy this would make a nice addition to the kris. Howland, Charles R. "The Philippine Insurrection of 1899: A Study." Infantry Journal XXX (Apr 1927): pp. 395-406. Per. Best Regards, Thilo

20th June 2011, 10:43 AM	#7
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	nice!!

20th June 2011, 03:54 PM	#8
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks thilo! i will check up on that... @ lorenz: lol, i keep looking for the "like" button for your post, but i just remember, this ain't facebook...

20th June 2011, 04:55 PM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ok I have one problem with a the sword the silver seems quite new to me?

20th June 2011, 05:27 PM	#11
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Very nice kris, pommel, provenance and plaque!!! Michael

20th June 2011, 07:21 PM	#15
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	CONGRADULATIONS ITS A BEAUTY AND UNUSUAL TO HAVE PROVENANCE SO THATS A BIT OF EXTRA ICING ON THE CAKE. HOW LONG IS THE KERIS? PERHAPS THE BRASS PLATE WITH PROVENANCE IS VERY LARGE AND MAKES THE KERIS LOOK SMALLER THAN USUAL. I WONDERED ABOUT THE HANDLE WHEN I FIRST SAW IT BUT ONE PICTURE SHOWING THE IVORY LAID TO REST MY SUSPECIONS AS TO AGE. IT IS POSSIBLE A FANCIER HANDLE MAY HAVE BEEN PUT WITH A OLDER BLADE TO MAKE IT MORE WORTHY FOR PRESENTATION BUT IF SO IT WOULD STILL HAVE BEEN DONE IN 1902.

20th June 2011, 08:57 PM	#17
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks mross... i think these types (kamagong and ivory dots) are a class by themselves. it screams strictly sulu. vandoo, the blade is about 21 inches, average in size. the plate is indeed on the larger side. interesting in that the Moro Campaign in Mindanao was in full swing (in 1902). i'm wondering what this captain howland was doing in Sulu. as a captain at that time, i'm assuming with that rank, he's a company commander, unless he's some sort of an executive officer to garner a gift from the sultan himself. nevertheless, the kris came with some pretty good historical trivia with it.

21st June 2011, 07:26 PM	#18
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Very NOice!

27th June 2011, 02:20 AM	#20
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	A very good specimen of history!

27th June 2011, 03:15 AM	#21
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Again what is great (besides the bling ) is the fact that you have great provenance with it.

27th June 2011, 04:07 PM	#22
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	That's one thing about moro weapons: tho we know each are custom made to an individual, we may never know the name of the original owner. Unlike the yataghans and some other middle eastern swords where the name of the original owner were somtimes found on the blade, it's not so with the moro stuff. There's only two other moro weapo ns i've seen and read that could be attributed to the original owner: a dagger that was given by Datu Piang to Webb Hayes, and a kris that belonged to Datu Natangkup that's in the National Museum in the philippines, as mentioned on cato's book. I do find the blade interesting in that if we go by what cato wrote, it's a mindanao blade...

27th June 2011, 05:42 PM	#23
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	There was also a lot of trade between Sulu and the Maguindanao............

27th June 2011, 06:53 PM	#24
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	That would have been my first impulse, jose, but i just find it hard to believe that all blades that are misplaced based on cato's categorization can be easily dismissed as a "traded blade."

27th June 2011, 08:43 PM	#25
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Not saying all are trade blades but certainly there was trade between these areas. Note that for example Magindanao pieces do also have woven silver bands like the Sulu. I also wonder if this could be a type of cross over of which Cato is not aware. We certainly need more information than Cato provides. Wish Cecil would come out with his book... I will say that the okir work on the blade and on the silver work does not appear to be Maguinanao or Maranao.

28th June 2011, 12:34 AM	#27
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	The first close-up on the asang-asang also seems to show that this is not the original clamp and perhaps not the original hilt.

28th June 2011, 02:49 AM	#28
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Re pic #4 ; couldn't that just be where the patina was left ? A shadow line from a not-so-complete clean ?

28th June 2011, 03:30 AM	#30
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Does this datu Piang gunong have a silver hilt?