19th century Latin American fighting knife?

[wildwolberine]

Wondering if anyone can confirm my assumption this is 19th century Latin American? I don’t have much experience with that region. Certainly looks like a Spanish Colonial sheath, I’ve ruled out Philippines but could be wrong. Maybe the characteristics ring a bell?

Blade 24 cm
OAL 37 cm

Seller photos, will update once received

(Please move if I’ve posted this in the wrong thread)

[M ELEY]

I would wager Spanish colonial and perhaps Brazilian. The star and SS patterns I've seen on a few Brazilian sword hilts like the one I used to own. Of course, these decorations are seen with other cultures (Moroccan, Algerian), but the overall look of the piece, the 'facone'-style blade and even the squared guard are more Central/South American. My 2 cents...

[wildwolberine]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I would wager Spanish colonial and perhaps Brazilian. The star and SS patterns I've seen on a few Brazilian sword hilts like the one I used to own. Of course, these decorations are seen with other cultures (Moroccan, Algerian), but the overall look of the piece, the 'facone'-style blade and even the squared guard are more Central/South American. My 2 cents...

Ok, thanks for your input! Will look into a Brazilian origin for this knife.

[wildwolberine]

Here’s the knife, cleaned up a bit. There’s a name on the underside of the hilt that wasn’t in the seller photos - a nice surprise! The fittings cleaned up nicely, and the wood looks better after a treatment with linseed oil.

[RobT]

wildwolberine,

I don't see any features on this knife or sheath that are inconsistent with the Philippines. The "squared guard" that M ELEY pointed out is not uncommonly found in Philippine daggers. I also note that the general shape and the slightly kopis edge is also commonly found on the so called "Philippine bowies". That "Del Sr" signature you show could actually be an abbreviation for Del Sur which refers to Illocos Del Sur in the Philippines which is a main manufacture site for Philippine bowies.

Sincerely,
RobT

[wildwolberine]

Originally Posted by RobT

wildwolberine,

I don't see any features on this knife or sheath that are inconsistent with the Philippines. The "squared guard" that M ELEY pointed out is not uncommonly found in Philippine daggers. I also note that the general shape and the slightly kopis edge is also commonly found on the so called "Philippine bowies". That "Del Sr" signature you show could actually be an abbreviation for Del Sur which refers to Illocos Del Sur in the Philippines which is a main manufacture site for Philippine bowies.

Sincerely,
RobT

RobT,

Thanks for your input! I could not find a similar example on the forum, I would appreciate any links to threads. I suspect this isn’t the original blade profile, it shows a lot of sharpening. The straight spine and edge and centered vs. offset tang are distinctive. The sheath is quite simple and lacks any reinforcement or ornamentation at the throat (of course this could be missing).

[Gavin Nugent]

I'd look to the Mexico and more specifically New Mexico regions for this type.
PI would "typically" have a screw on pommel nut.

[RobT]

Gavin Nugent,

As I wrote, I don't see any features on the knife or sheath in question that are inconsistent with the Philippines. That being said, my knowledge of Mexican knives is very limited so I will take your word for it that Mexico is also a possibility. After all, it's not unreasonable to expect knives from two former Spanish colonies to look similar. However, there is that "Del Sr." to account for. If it doesn't stand for Illocos Del Sur in the Philippines, does it stand for a southern Mexican area? I doubt that it is a personal name because "Del Sr." would just translate as "of the senior".
I must however, take issue with your statement that Philippine knives "'typically' have a screw on pommel nut". I looked over my entire collection of Philippine knives with clip point blades (over 16 items) and none of them have a screw on pommel nut. Likewise, none of my double edge Philippine daggers (6 total) have this feature. I have one short sword with a screw on nut but all the rest with a through tang, have the tang peened over a pommel nut or washer.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Sajen]

I am with Rob here, I haven't seen so far daggers from the Philippines with a screw. And I also think that "Del Sr" means Illocos Del Sur.

Regards,
Detlef

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by RobT

Gavin Nugent,

As I wrote, I don't see any features on the knife or sheath in question that are inconsistent with the Philippines. That being said, my knowledge of Mexican knives is very limited so I will take your word for it that Mexico is also a possibility. After all, it's not unreasonable to expect knives from two former Spanish colonies to look similar. However, there is that "Del Sr." to account for. If it doesn't stand for Illocos Del Sur in the Philippines, does it stand for a southern Mexican area? I doubt that it is a personal name because "Del Sr." would just translate as "of the senior".
I must however, take issue with your statement that Philippine knives "'typically' have a screw on pommel nut". I looked over my entire collection of Philippine knives with clip point blades (over 16 items) and none of them have a screw on pommel nut. Likewise, none of my double edge Philippine daggers (6 total) have this feature. I have one short sword with a screw on nut but all the rest with a through tang, have the tang peened over a pommel nut or washer.

Sincerely,
RobT

Thanks RobT... the shrug icon seems to be a failed icon that no longer appears in print when selected... perhaps the mods can look in to that.... it might have added context

The quillon block are mostly the same, many found in this one forward one back style presented above, as are numerous Gaucho knives too... the blade profile is often the same, most have block forte, although I've encountered others that don't too... the grips come in a variety of types, from single plain horn sections, multiple sections, round, oval, squarish etc... most I recall have the collar at the guard and a capstan pommel...Food for thought at least.

Attached just one example of the type.

Originally Posted by Sajen

I am with Rob here, I haven't seen so far daggers from the Philippines with a screw. And I also think that "Del Sr" means Illocos Del Sur.

Regards,
Detlef

Interesting... IF Del Sur, and if the "u" is added, it would mean "from the south" more than a specific location (Shrug icon inserted).

From the south is the region this knives I note are from, the New Mexico border regions...

Del Sr which I think means "From Mr"... relying on Google translate there, and RobT notes, "Del Sr." would just translate as "of the senior" ... if anyone can offer more insight on the linguistics or possible twists I am interested to learn more.

Gavin

Side note edit...
The grip shape and the way the pommel cap covers the edges, along with the turned waisted collar do have a PI flavour to them.
But equally, the grip shape is not unique to the PI region either (shrug icon inserted)
https://officialalamo.medium.com/mar...e-5c491a3eb3a0

[David R]

Wherever it's from, it's a nice and interesting piece..... and Spanish colonial seems a good fit for it.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Del Sr which I think means "From Mr"... relying on Google translate there, and RobT notes, "Del Sr." would just translate as "of the senior" ... if anyone can offer more insight on the linguistics or possible twists I am interested to learn more.

Just an idle thought, if you are thinking about this inscription meaning "Mr." then Del Señor Poderoso or Señor Todopoderoso to me would make more sense. As a reference to The Lord Almighty. When I saw it my mind automatically went to of the south meaning.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Just an idle thought, if you are thinking about this inscription meaning "Mr." then Del Señor Poderoso or Señor Todopoderoso to me would make more sense. As a reference to The Lord Almighty. When I saw it my mind automatically went to of the south meaning.

A very interesting thought. If only they could talk.

Cold steel certainly gives one the power to take life like God, at the same time a reminder to the owner to treat it's use prudence and respect.

[wildwolberine]

Originally Posted by David R

Wherever it's from, it's a nice and interesting piece..... and Spanish colonial seems a good fit for it.

Thanks for the input, everyone!

I had a little breakthrough today. I won’t link or post a screenshot but if you search for “Fernando Texas bowie” a similar knife comes up. (After having another look at the bowie I believe the stamp is “Fernando Esser”, not “Texas”). There are certainly differences - hilt material, shape of guard etc. and of course mine isn’t stamped, but the form is very similar. Sheath is also similar. We live in San Antonio so a possible Texas connection is interesting. Research continues!