Sabiki question

[harrywagner]

A new friend and fellow collector recommended Stephen Gracie's book "Jambiya" to me and I am glad he did. It is loaded with practical information, in addition to photos of an incredible collection. I wish there were more books for collectors as good as this one.

Now to my question. The second paragraph on page 161 talks about Sabiki blades being manufactured in three forms: with a central rib (Muayyar), with a flat blade (Beyd) and with a thickened rhomboidal blade. Unfortunately only two blades are shown, and both of those appear, to my untrained eye, to be the Beyd style. I think I know what the Muayyar and Beyd blades look like, but am not certain I have ever seen a rhomboidal blade. Does anyone have a photo of one they will share? Here are photos of three Sabikis I have. I believe one of the blades is Beyd and one is Muayyar. The other Sabibki blade is a very different animal than the other two. I'm posting a picture of it in the off-chance this is what Mr. Gracie is referring to. A fun note I can add is that the chape of the mystery blade's scabbard is a spent cartridge shell.

Harry

[kahnjar1]

Hi Harry,
No I do not think so. What Steve refers to is a blade much like this ()...... curved surfaces but no ridge. I have not seen one either, so assume that they are not common. The two Rashaq Dharia you show have similar but not identical ribbed blades. Some also have fullered blades though they do not appear that often either, and are likely Saudi types. Don't forget that Steve's book is about Yemeni types.
Stu

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Harry,
No I do not think so. What Steve refers to is a blade much like this ()...... curved surfaces but no ridge. I have not seen one either, so assume that they are not common. The two Rashaq Dharia you show have similar but not identical ribbed blades. Some also have fullered blades though they do not appear that often either, and are likely Saudi types. Don't forget that Steve's book is about Yemeni types.
Stu

Thanks Stu,
Mr. Gracie's book has given me plenty to think about. I have always thought the last one (with the highly polished blade) was made fairly recently and that was why it's blade is so different. It is a thick piece of steel, and it is all business. The other two have very thin blades. No medial ridge at all on the top one (the oldest looking one). The one with the belt doesn't really have a ridge either. The blade has fullers on both sides, from the Ricasso to the tip, which gives the appearance of a ridge. I will keep an eye out for a rhomboid style blade.

Harry

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thanks Stu,
Mr. Gracie's book has given me plenty to think about. I have always thought the last one (with the highly polished blade) was made fairly recently and that was why it's blade is so different. It is a thick piece of steel, and it is all business. The other two have very thin blades. No medial ridge at all on the top one (the oldest looking one). The one with the belt doesn't really have a ridge either. The blade has fullers on both sides, from the Ricasso to the tip, which gives the appearance of a ridge. I will keep an eye out for a rhomboid style blade.

Harry

You could well be right about recent manufacture of the one with the belt. They ARE made today, and come up on THAT auction site reasonably regularly. The earlier ones have THICK silver decoration to the hilt and the late ones have very thin decoration. The bottom one in your pics LOOKS like an early one judging by the patina, and "rounded" worn edges to the silverwork.
Here is an early one I have.
Stu

[Miguel]

Hi Stu,

I always thought that these were Wahabite knives

Miguel

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Stu,

I always thought that these were Wahabite knives

Miguel

That's very historically inaccurate. The Wahhabi movement was more of a Najdi movement, their equipment would be similar to the following (with less emphasis on gold) the items shown are after the movement was destroyed by Al-Saud as a strong and active military branch but what they used earlier is of this design.

Now on topic, the rhomboidal bladed dharia (dhurai') is very rare. Its ones with medial ridge, rather that the shape of the blade is... rhomboidal :-) I have one in my collection with a wootz blade.

[A.alnakkas]

Here are two from my collection with rhomboidal blades. One is wootz (needs a proper polish and etch) and one is some sort of folded steel?

Note that its hard to photograph but basically the blade looks something like this <>

[A.alnakkas]

Sabiki refers to a certain type, the fuller silver ones made in Taif in a much older style that is worn through-out Alhijaz.

Now these are not my speciality but from what I understand, the rhomboidal blades are considered to be 'old' by the Arabs who collect these. Kinda makes sense :-)

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Here are two from my collection with rhomboidal blades. One is wootz (needs a proper polish and etch) and one is some sort of folded steel?

Note that its hard to photograph but basically the blade looks something like this <>

Thank you for sharing these amazing pieces, and for showing us a rhomboidal blade. I imagine they are noticeably heavier than the other two forms?

Harry

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thank you for sharing these amazing pieces, and for showing us a rhomboidal blade. I imagine they are noticeably heavier than the other two forms?

Harry

To be honest I have no idea as I did not measure. But these are better made unlike the more recent ones which can be sheet steel.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

You could well be right about recent manufacture of the one with the belt. They ARE made today, and come up on THAT auction site reasonably regularly. The earlier ones have THICK silver decoration to the hilt and the late ones have very thin decoration. The bottom one in your pics LOOKS like an early one judging by the patina, and "rounded" worn edges to the silverwork.
Here is an early one I have.
Stu

Hi Stu,
I think they are very similar. I would be surprised if they were not the same maker, same period. I am curious now about it's age. i thought that it was post WWII, given it's high polish. How old do you think it is? An item's age has never been a primary concern for me, and good thing too, since I really stink at it!

One of the things I really like about this knife is that the chape of the scabbard is a spent cartridge shell. I am new to this and have not handled enough Sabikis to know if this is the norm or not. Are they all (this maker, this period) like this? Thanks again! Very helpful.

Harry

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Hi Stu,
I think they are very similar. I would be surprised if they were not the same maker, same period. I am curious now about it's age. i thought that it was post WWII, given it's high polish. How old do you think it is? An item's age has never been a primary concern for me, and good thing too, since I really stink at it!

One of the things I really like about this knife is that the chape of the scabbard is a spent cartridge shell. I am new to this and have not handled enough Sabikis to know if this is the norm or not. Are they all (this maker, this period) like this? Thanks again! Very helpful.

Harry

Hi Harry,
Well after seeing the rhomboidal blade shown by Lofty, which incidentally I used to own, I had another look at those I still have in my collection, and find 3 with blades of this type. As Lofty says it is very hard to get a clear photo of the profile. All 3 are old late 19th or early 20th c pieces.

Now to try and explain the difference between newish and old Rashaq hilts. The older hilts are decorated with thicker and better quality silver than the newer ones being offered, which have thinner silver. The "saw" edge decoration on the newer ones is quite sharp and well defined, and the strapping is thinner, but on the older ones the saw edge is usually worn and not as sharply defined.
Shineyness means nothing, just that the metal has been highly polished, and this should not be taken as a way to judge the age. Patina and wear are more reliable ways. As I said before the last one you show without the belt looks to me to be of better quality, (and therefore older) than the other one. The fact that both appear to be from the same maker means nothing in terms of age.
The use of cartridge cases to provide a finial to the scabbard seems to have been a common practice, as several of mine have this feature.
Stu

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Harry,
Well after seeing the rhomboidal blade shown by Lofty, which incidentally I used to own, I had another look at those I still have in my collection, and find 3 with blades of this type. As Lofty says it is very hard to get a clear photo of the profile. All 3 are old late 19th or early 20th c pieces.

Now to try and explain the difference between newish and old Rashaq hilts. The older hilts are decorated with thicker and better quality silver than the newer ones being offered, which have thinner silver. The "saw" edge decoration on the newer ones is quite sharp and well defined, and the strapping is thinner, but on the older ones the saw edge is usually worn and not as sharply defined.
Shineyness means nothing, just that the metal has been highly polished, and this should not be taken as a way to judge the age. Patina and wear are more reliable ways. As I said before the last one you show without the belt looks to me to be of better quality, (and therefore older) than the other one. The fact that both appear to be from the same maker means nothing in terms of age.
The use of cartridge cases to provide a finial to the scabbard seems to have been a common practice, as several of mine have this feature.
Stu

Thanks Stu. I am glad I asked. Thanks also for the photos. Great looking knives. Very helpful.

[Miguel]

Very interesting thread, thanks for initiating it Harry

Thanks for correcting me Mr A anaikka it has made me do some research on this weapon which I understood, from certain reference books, was called a Wahhabi Jambiya but now I know differently. Apparently the fault lies with a Mr William Palgrave. My research has shown me that it is the weapon of Western Arabia being the traditional knife of North Yemen, the Hajiz and the Asir, also it is known in the Hajiz as a Sabak and the Asir as a Sabik, thank goodness for Mr Elgood. This is what I like about this forum I am learning all the time.
Miguel