Keris with swirls in pamor for comment.

Atlantia · 25th June 2012, 07:17 PM

Buoyed by the results of the first keris I have brought to show and tell for quite some time, I've decided to show you some more.

So here's the next Keris for ID and comments please. The description said middle Java C.1880, but I've found that some of these seem right while others are wrong so I'll leave it to you guys to tell me:

Rick · 25th June 2012, 08:36 PM

Boy, did you step in it mate .

Another quite interesting piece .

I think we might call that pamor puser .

Atlantia · 25th June 2012, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Boy, did you step in it mate .

Another quite interesting piece .

I think we might call that pamor puser .

Thanks Rick,
Pamor puser; Centre of the world?

Best
Gene

P.S. You can't see it in the pics I meant to show both sides. That swirl is right through the blade!

Sajen · 25th June 2012, 10:20 PM

Very nice keris Gene! This one I would like to see indeed with a proper Stain!

Regards,

Detlef

David · 25th June 2012, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Very nice keris Gene! This one I would like to see indeed with a proper Stain!

Yes, please...

Atlantia · 25th June 2012, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Very nice keris Gene! This one I would like to see indeed with a proper Stain!

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

I took a BIG chance on this one, it was comparatively very expensive and I nearly left it.
I swapped a nice sword for it, so I hope it's both old and unusual!
I want to learn and I find that hard lessons tend to stick in my mind the best

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 25th June 2012, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes, please...

lol, I'm glad you like it. Any information greatfully recieved

Best
Gene

Rick · 26th June 2012, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

That swirl is right through the blade!

Maybe not, Gene .
I think I see evidence of a slorok present .
That pamor may have been applied to each side .

Atlantia · 26th June 2012, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Maybe not, Gene .
I think I see evidence of a slorok present .
That pamor may have been applied to each side .

...goes off to look up 'slorok'........

Rick · 26th June 2012, 01:02 AM

'Core', mate .

A. G. Maisey · 26th June 2012, 01:03 AM

"Puser" has a few meanings:- navel, center, middle point, swirl; not not necessarily center of the earth.

Rick, it could go all the way through the blade. There are several ways to put the core into a blade, and two of those ways do not have the core running all the way through the blade, but only along its edges. Even if the core did go all the way through, it would still be possible to put a hole through the middle of the blade, and insert a rolled up piece of pamor before you welded the core in.

In keris terminology one of the meanings of "slorok" is the core of the blade, but it is also the separate front part of some types of pendok, or the thin contrasting backing foil for the front panel of other kinds of pendok. Some people even call the singap a slorok. Essentially a slorok is something that slides, so it can be a sliding panel, or a drawer --- like we keep socks in --- or any kind of sliding cover. A singap is the cloth bag we store keris in.

Atlantia · 26th June 2012, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

'Core', mate .

Thanks Rick.

tunggulametung · 26th June 2012, 01:09 AM

The hilt is Surakarta/Central Java while the sheath is Yogyakarta. The blade, I'm not smart with that one

At the first sight it is quite interesting, but looking at how the ricikan (details) were done

Nice wood grain on the sheath. Pendok (metal oversheath) is lower end, sorry.

Atlantia · 26th June 2012, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

"Puser" has a few meanings:- navel, center, middle point, swirl; not not necessarily center of the earth.

Rick, it could go all the way through the blade. There are several ways to put the core into a blade, and two of those ways do not have the core running all the way through the blade, but only along its edges. Even if the core did go all the way through, it would still be possible to put a hole through the middle of the blade, and insert a rolled up piece of pamor before you welded the core in.

Ah, that was just the first reference I found on google. I'm very much still learning

Jean · 26th June 2012, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

The blade, I'm not smart with that one

At the first sight it is quite interesting, but looking at how the ricikan (details) were done

Hello Chandra,
Do you think that this blade is Javanese? I would call the pamor Kul Buntet Tambal?

Regards

Greybeard · 26th June 2012, 10:22 AM

A very nice and interesting keris. However, I'm somewhat puzzled about the strange looking pitting along the blade -- vice marks? I don't hope so ...

Atlantia · 26th June 2012, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

A very nice and interesting keris. However, I'm somewhat puzzled about the strange looking pitting along the blade -- vice marks? I don't hope so ...

Hi Greybeard,
Glad you like it.
Not vice marks, just old corrosion by the looks of it.

Best
Gene

tunggulametung · 26th June 2012, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Chandra,
Do you think that this blade is Javanese? I would call the pamor Kul Buntet Tambal?

Regards

Hello Jean, yes I think so, but I'm not well trained to differentiate which part of Java; my wild guess is Jogja (I don't know how it differ from Mataram

) just because I remember that it should look rather slender and pointy-please correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't know if the pamor appearance is valid for the region. I'm trying to speak about style and not origin-and not that tangguh thing to which the more I learn the more I don't care. Why do you ask that? Do you think otherwise (not a Javanese blade)?

Normally I only care about simple pamor (like wos wutah or ngulit semangka), but since you already start it, I would call this lintang kemukus tambal, kul buntet (snail) lintang kemukus (comet) tambal (to patch)-maybe not, or simply dwi warna (two colors/pamor), tri warna (three colors) etc. Also not well trained in the subject so I'm sorry if I name the wrong pamor

.

I look at the blade again, I think the sorsoran is rather awkward, some major details are: the upper part of the ganja (guard/cross section) where it meets the blade is rather not well defined (rather concave?, should be undulated and giving a perpendicular feels with the bottom), the greneng, decorations on the back appear to be worn out naturally, but the front details at the elephant trunk area appear to be not, maybe that makes me to think before that the details are somehow less elegant. (I'm sorry Gene if you read this post but you know this is just opinion and I could be wrong of course

)

I hope now I look smart with my lengthy post

Atlantia · 26th June 2012, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

The hilt is Surakarta/Central Java while the sheath is Yogyakarta. The blade, I'm not smart with that one

At the first sight it is quite interesting, but looking at how the ricikan (details) were done

Nice wood grain on the sheath. Pendok (metal oversheath) is lower end, sorry.

Hi Tunggulametung,

I can see a shadow of the shape of an earlier pendok so I don't think this one is the original.

Best
Gene

tunggulametung · 26th June 2012, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Tunggulametung,

I can see a shadow of the shape of an earlier pendok so I don't think this one is the original.

Best
Gene

That's normal

but if you ever think about replacing it again a decent or well crafted pendok (used/new) should cost a little while it is not made of or contain precious metal. The hilt is not appropriate for the sheath, but again also quite affordable. But if I were you for the time being I will keep it just the way it is, especially if this is a recent acquisition and see if you still like it another Christmas or two, then it might need some makeover. Oh, and keep the hilt and the hilt cup away from this forum crowd if you ever change it

, it seems a nice one (low grade silver? & refined carving? hardwood?).

Greybeard · 26th June 2012, 02:06 PM

Hi Gene

I'm glad that these are just old corrosion pits. Vice marks (as well as file/grinding marks) are very nasty on an otherwise fine old keris blade. Congratulations on this piece!

Best regards,

Heinz

David · 26th June 2012, 03:00 PM

As has been pointed out, there are certain "problems" with this keris. The hilt and sheath do not match regionally. Does the blade fit tightly in the sheath with no spacing between blade and opening? If the sheath appears made for the blade than perhaps the hilt was added later for sale purposes. If that is the case you might want to look for a nice Jogya style planar hilt and replace this one.

This is certainly not a master keris. Everyone seems to feel the need to apologize to you when saying this, but frankly, very few of us own master works. I do think it is a keris with some character and the bottom line is that if it appeals to you it was worth obtaining (though i am not sure what you mean by "comparatively expensive"). I personally have a liking for swirling pamors like this. Tunggalemetung has pointed out some valid problems in the crafting of this blade so i won't repeat them. But if this blade were perfectly executed it would have been more than "comparatively" expensive.

This is certainly a blade i would like to see in proper stain, so you might want to consider that.

Atlantia · 26th June 2012, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Hi Gene

I'm glad that these are just old corrosion pits. Vice marks (as well as file/grinding marks) are very nasty on an otherwise fine old keris blade. Congratulations on this piece!

Best regards,

Heinz

Hi Heinz,

Thanks for that. I'm glad you like it.
Best
Gene

Atlantia · 26th June 2012, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

That's normal

but if you ever think about replacing it again a decent or well crafted pendok (used/new) should cost a little while it is not made of or contain precious metal. The hilt is not appropriate for the sheath, but again also quite affordable. But if I were you for the time being I will keep it just the way it is, especially if this is a recent acquisition and see if you still like it another Christmas or two, then it might need some makeover. Oh, and keep the hilt and the hilt cup away from this forum crowd if you ever change it

, it seems a nice one (low grade silver? & refined carving? hardwood?).

Hi Tunggulametung,

The metal of the pendok has the appearance of white brass or low grade silver/white metal. The hilt cup however seems to be quite good grade silver.
The Hilt, hilt cup and blade all appear to be very old. The hilt is dark hardwood.
Good advice thank you.
Best
Gene

Jean · 26th June 2012, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Hello Jean, yes I think so, but I'm not well trained to differentiate which part of Java; my wild guess is Jogja (I don't know how it differ from Mataram

) just because I remember that it should look rather slender and pointy-please correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't know if the pamor appearance is valid for the region. I'm trying to speak about style and not origin-and not that tangguh thing to which the more I learn the more I don't care. Why do you ask that? Do you think otherwise (not a Javanese blade)?

Normally I only care about simple pamor (like wos wutah or ngulit semangka), but since you already start it, I would call this lintang kemukus tambal, kul buntet (snail) lintang kemukus (comet) tambal (to patch)-maybe not, or simply dwi warna (two colors/pamor), tri warna (three colors) etc. Also not well trained in the subject so I'm sorry if I name the wrong pamor

.

Hello Chandra,
Yeah, this blade has some peculiar features such as the sirah cecak, pejetan, lambe gajah, and greneng so I have some doubts that it originates from Central Java but a regional javanese origin is possible. I share what you say about the tangguh matter, thanks to Alan for having opened our eyes!

I agree with your alternative pamor classifications.
Best regards

Atlantia · 26th June 2012, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

As has been pointed out, there are certain "problems" with this keris. The hilt and sheath do not match regionally. Does the blade fit tightly in the sheath with no spacing between blade and opening? If the sheath appears made for the blade than perhaps the hilt was added later for sale purposes. If that is the case you might want to look for a nice Jogya style planar hilt and replace this one.

This is certainly not a master keris. Everyone seems to feel the need to apologize to you when saying this, but frankly, very few of us own master works. I do think it is a keris with some character and the bottom line is that if it appeals to you it was worth obtaining (though i am not sure what you mean by "comparatively expensive"). I personally have a liking for swirling pamors like this. Tunggalemetung has pointed out some valid problems in the crafting of this blade so i won't repeat them. But if this blade were perfectly executed it would have been more than "comparatively" expensive.

This is certainly a blade i would like to see in proper stain, so you might want to consider that.

Hi David,

Fair points, thanks. I do take them onboard.
It was expensive compared with my others/what I would usually expect to get a nice Keris for.
It seemed unusual and called to me. Perhaps I should have left it. Perhaps I should stick it under my pillow and see if it has any other message for me

I have no knowledge of how to restore the stain on these, any suggestions?

Best
Gene

David · 26th June 2012, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I have no knowledge of how to restore the stain on these, any suggestions?

If you choose to do the staining yourself there are many threads to be found here on the processes. Just search the archives. You could also find someone with experience to do it for you.

25th June 2012, 07:17 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Keris with swirls in pamor for comment. Buoyed by the results of the first keris I have brought to show and tell for quite some time, I've decided to show you some more. So here's the next Keris for ID and comments please. The description said middle Java C.1880, but I've found that some of these seem right while others are wrong so I'll leave it to you guys to tell me: Attached Images

25th June 2012, 08:36 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Boy, did you step in it mate . Another quite interesting piece . I think we might call that pamor puser .

25th June 2012, 10:20 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Very nice keris Gene! This one I would like to see indeed with a proper Stain! Regards, Detlef

26th June 2012, 01:02 AM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	'Core', mate .

26th June 2012, 01:03 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	"Puser" has a few meanings:- navel, center, middle point, swirl; not not necessarily center of the earth. Rick, it could go all the way through the blade. There are several ways to put the core into a blade, and two of those ways do not have the core running all the way through the blade, but only along its edges. Even if the core did go all the way through, it would still be possible to put a hole through the middle of the blade, and insert a rolled up piece of pamor before you welded the core in. In keris terminology one of the meanings of "slorok" is the core of the blade, but it is also the separate front part of some types of pendok, or the thin contrasting backing foil for the front panel of other kinds of pendok. Some people even call the singap a slorok. Essentially a slorok is something that slides, so it can be a sliding panel, or a drawer --- like we keep socks in --- or any kind of sliding cover. A singap is the cloth bag we store keris in.

26th June 2012, 01:09 AM	#13
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	The hilt is Surakarta/Central Java while the sheath is Yogyakarta. The blade, I'm not smart with that one At the first sight it is quite interesting, but looking at how the ricikan (details) were done Nice wood grain on the sheath. Pendok (metal oversheath) is lower end, sorry.

26th June 2012, 10:22 AM	#16
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	A very nice and interesting keris. However, I'm somewhat puzzled about the strange looking pitting along the blade -- vice marks? I don't hope so ...

26th June 2012, 02:06 PM	#21
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hi Gene I'm glad that these are just old corrosion pits. Vice marks (as well as file/grinding marks) are very nasty on an otherwise fine old keris blade. Congratulations on this piece! Best regards, Heinz

26th June 2012, 03:00 PM	#22
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	As has been pointed out, there are certain "problems" with this keris. The hilt and sheath do not match regionally. Does the blade fit tightly in the sheath with no spacing between blade and opening? If the sheath appears made for the blade than perhaps the hilt was added later for sale purposes. If that is the case you might want to look for a nice Jogya style planar hilt and replace this one. This is certainly not a master keris. Everyone seems to feel the need to apologize to you when saying this, but frankly, very few of us own master works. I do think it is a keris with some character and the bottom line is that if it appeals to you it was worth obtaining (though i am not sure what you mean by "comparatively expensive"). I personally have a liking for swirling pamors like this. Tunggalemetung has pointed out some valid problems in the crafting of this blade so i won't repeat them. But if this blade were perfectly executed it would have been more than "comparatively" expensive. This is certainly a blade i would like to see in proper stain, so you might want to consider that.