Inscriptions in Navajas, for Chris and who else

[fernando]

Hi Chris,
What i meant to say is i don't have your e-mail adress, to send these directly. I have now copied them to Photobucket and here they are, through the Forum. This way also for who else might be interested.
Kind regards.







Sorry, i thaught they would be closed files

[Chris Evans]

Hola Fernando,

Muchisimas gracias.

For those incurable romantics, who like myself, are infatuated with these wonderful folding knives, Spanish navajas, Fernando has kindly made available a list on inscriptions that were commonly etched into the blades. Blades were usually eteched with popular sayings on only one side, as the navaja pointed from right to left.

The least I can do is to translate some of them into English:

Soy de Sevilla: I am from Seville

Soy defensa de mi dueno: I am the defender of my owner

Soy para cortar y no se presta: I am for cutting and not for loan

Viva el honor de mi dueno: Long life to my owners honour

Matare a tus enemigos con la ayuda de Dio: I will kill your enemies, with God's help

En Albacete me izo Ivan Carvajal: I was made in ALbacete by Ivan Carvajal

Soy defensa de mi dueno porque le cuesta el dinero soy de acero fino y fuerte y el que me quirea probal lo bera: I am the defender of my owner. Because he paid good money I am made from strong and fine steel. He who will try me will see that this is so

I should add that the bulk of the cutlers before 1900 were illiterate and their spelling was notoriously bad.

Again, many thanks

Chris
PS. Where did you get this list of inscriptions?

[fernando]

Hi Chris
This list was given to me by an antique Arms seller in Oporto, when i was mentioning a curious inscription engraved in an old sword blade mounted in one of my sword sticks. The only other time i had seen such inscription was in a XVIII century sword i saw at the Military Museum of Oporto:No al amor que no cause tromento ( in one side); Se no es firme conesta me lopagaras ( on the other side ). Quite sugestive, don't you think ? and also with a little mispelling.
Do you want me to go deep into the navajas inscription list origin ?
fernando

[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

Originally Posted by fernando

Do you want me to go deep into the navajas inscription list origin ?
fernando

Very kind of you to offer - Why not? It is all good research. There is still a lot to be discovered about navajas.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Hi Chris,
I have asked Mr. Barreto Costa ( that's the name ) how he managed to get the list. He says he has put it up himself, through the years. Being an Arms seller and collector, he buys and signs lots of publications. He started to write down all the inscriptions that came in the support texts of the several navaja examples, in order to make it easy to check on possible specimens he would eventually collect and trade, knowing that many times the inscriptions are faded and rather hard to read and interpreter.
Kind regards
fernando

[Battara]

Just for kicks, here is another navaja, but with this in Afrikaans:

Van aboor in varen ("from a true boar").

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...vaja+afrikaans

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi everyone, I am very new to this website and the use of forums, but am not a new comer with collecting edged weapons.
I am hoping someone out there can help me put together some very hard to read script that is found on my pride and joy, being Australian, Spanish in not a language I grew up with.
With the use of internet tranlators I have worked out the first of the three lines found on the blade and only partially deciphered the other two lines.
The first line reads "Si esta vibora te pica no hay remedio en la botica", "If this viper itches to you there is no remedy in the pharmacy".....too right I say, wouldn't want this fella drawn in anger against me.
The second line reads "___ defensora de mi dueno bas ta el _____ ______", " ___ defender of my owner you go to ______ ______".
The third line is " O le ____ __ Grava __ Labra" ....something like "it burdens working to him" with a few words missing.
Those of you in the know, may know of this inscription or be able to fill in the blanks if fluent in Spanish.
I also remember reading in other forum discussions about the Navaja and someone stating how hard some were to open. I must say this one being my fav in my collection is extremely easy to open, just a firm grip in the middle, useing my finger tips to just push the blade free of the horn handle and a flick of the wrist and hey fresto, a 16inch blade ratchets forth. I know why many call these the predesessor to the automatic flick knives we know of today.
Many thanks
Gav
aka Freebooter

[fernando]

Hi, may i come in?

A little part missing in the first phrase:

Originally Posted by freebooter

The second line reads "Soy defensora de mi dueno, basta el _____ ______", " i am defender of my owner, (it's) enough that he______ ______".

Also i follow Chris on his "suffising" sugestion


The third line is " O le ____ __ Grava __ Labra" ....something like "it burdens working to him" ??? with a few words missing.
aka Freebooter

I wouldn't bet on this assumption before trying to decipher the rest of the words in this phrase. I don't think is an afirmative sentence, but an optional one, ilke either such or such. The "O" in the beginning could well mean "or".

As for the viper atribution, Chris, i have a varied perspective. In Spain, like in Portugal, there are three diferent terms ( maybe all over ). Cobra, used for generically mentionning the reptile (at least in Portugal) Serpiente=Serpente, used often in mystic situations, and Vibora, necessarily a poisonous snake.
Cobra is only atributed to the reptile, Serpente can be used to conotate an evil person, and Vibora to conotate a poisonous ( speech ) person.
So in the case of Navajas, i think the "Vibora" sense is that of a lethal snake = Cobra venenosa.
Forget if i am talking nonsense.
All the best

[fernando]

Hi Gav
Your "pride and joy" is indeed a beautyfull navaja.
Certainly an exhibition piece, as Chris well puts it ( he is the expert ).
The inumerous phrases engraved on it, instead of the usual one or two, also bring it to the same conclusion.
The waved brass plates at the forte and the notching at the blade back are not often seen in Navajas ... what would you say, Chris?
Eventualy you can find a blue print of these efects in plug ( hunting ) bayonets from the Andalucia area ... if that helps to guess your navaja original region ?!
Fernando

[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

Originally Posted by fernando

As for the viper atribution, Chris, i have a varied perspective. In Spain, like in Portugal, there are three diferent terms ( maybe all over ). Cobra, used for generically mentionning the reptile (at least in Portugal) Serpiente=Serpente, used often in mystic situations, and Vibora, necessarily a poisonous snake.
Cobra is only atributed to the reptile, Serpente can be used to conotate an evil person, and Vibora to conotate a poisonous ( speech ) person.
So in the case of Navajas, i think the "Vibora" sense is that of a lethal snake = Cobra venenosa.
Forget if i am talking nonsense.
All the best

You are absolutely right and I stand corrected. By way of a lame excuse, what I was stating was considered normal usage of the word in South American Spanish and I forgot about Iberia! Actally, even there it was a misnomer because I looked it up in my ancient Argentinean dictionary! "Cobra" is a misnomer also used in South America interchangeably with "serpiente", "culebra" and "vibora".

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi David,

I tend to agree with Fernando in that you haven't missed out on much. It appears to be a low grade 20th century, possibly French navaja in a sorry state of disrepair.

I have my own share of such junk knives, which I buy to complete the story of the navaja. As such they have their place in a comprehensive collection, but as stand alones they have little value.

Cheers
Chris

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks guys, just a few random points and extras.

I will continue to work out the missing texts on the large blade and see what I work out. I can definitely see Moorish influences shine through with the decoration on this knife, hopefully I can source several more and have these framed up too.
Thanks Fernando, you were absolutely right about the word "Soy" it is partially hidden by the brass on the blade.

With regards to the framed collection and Chris's reply,

The top one is definitely Spanish from what Chris has pointed out, it has a square locking hole with a single notch, amazing craftsmanship when examined closely. The piecing together of this piece is absolutely precision engineering.

The Alvero Garcia blade appears to be 20th century with the further input from Chris as the blade is super smooth, but it is heavily etched and I can see light file marks on the non etched edges??????

The Navaja without a locking mechanism is identical in everyway to this ebay link below. This may help further identify it. The little cresent for the thumb nail is present as is the symbol shown above the initials, though it lacks a couple of those strokes either side and the circle in the middle is clearer on mine. I have heard of this referred to as a "sun burst crown". Every engraving on the end caps are identical too.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=017

As for the junker with the fake mother of pearl grips, it also has a gorgeous file finished locking spring much like the large exhibition piece has on the blade, it also has a pipe tamper to the back of it, both the back spring and blade are reasonable carbon steel and the blade is very sharp, the fittings appear to be nickel wrapped around another type of steel on the end caps.

I am still not 100% convinced about the Toledo blade being very modern, there is nothing stamped about this navaja(to my eyes), it is all, what I believe, engraved, etched or chiselled, the lines are so crisp and delicate in many places. I do remember Laura from knifecollection some years ago put this around circa 1900-1910 as she too was watching the auction at the time and wanted to add it to her stock.

I have found several of these books you speak of Chris but have yet to purchase them.

Thanks heaps everyone, I'll get to adding some of my other little treasures in other posts, like my ivory and silver Dha with an Burmese made English clip point bowie blade, silver Tibetan dagger, sword canes, Chinese swords, Persian axes, dress swords and other stuff I have squirreled away here. It is great to be able to share these wonderful things with like minded people and learn more about what we all love.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gav,

Originally Posted by freebooter

I am still not 100% convinced about the Toledo blade being very modern, there is nothing stamped about this navaja(to my eyes), it is all, what I believe, engraved, etched or chiselled, the lines are so crisp and delicate in many places. I do remember Laura from knifecollection some years ago put this around circa 1900-1910 as she too was watching the auction at the time and wanted to add it to her stock.

OK. we here a obviously Spanish style non functional souvenir grade navaja manufactured some time ago, but we don't know when. Apart from the ubiquitous "TOLEDO" there is nothing else to identify it.

In such cases we can only do the following:

a) Carefully examine the piece and try and detect the technology used in its manufacture, such as blanking of the blade, the mode of construction as for example cast or the earlier riveted sheet handle frame, indications of machining and die forgings, mechanical polishing, electroplating, type of engraving used, materials employed and any other evidence of advanced manufacturing. All this is then to be compared with periods of known cutlery output from Spain.

b) Try to estimate the probable age of the piece from condition and type of paint used to fill up the engraving. A powerful clue is whether the gold effect was obtained with powdered pigment paint or a thin coat of translucent "gold" laquer applied over a silvery electro plated surface. The way to detect this is to examine the area in question under a low power microscope (20x-50x) and with a scalpel gently scratch away at the surface. If this technology was used, then after removal of the coat of lacquer a shiny silver surface will be revealed

Now, we do know that

a) Up to around 60s, cutlery in Spain was a cottage industry, using only the most rudimentary tools and basic materials. After that, it modernized;

b) There was flood of cheap souvenir daggers, and swords in the 60s and 70s with cast metal handles and plated blades using the above "faux" gold plating, all etch engraved and painted with enamels. As far as I can ascertain, the sequence of paint deposition was as follows:

1st coat: Silvery electro plating
2nd coat: Translucent "gold"lacquer
3d coat : Colored enamel, the "gold" lacquer serving as an undercoat/primer.

I have not seen any earlier Spanish decorative cutlery that utilized this "faux" gold finish.

c) We also do know that cast metal navaja handles became widespread sometime after around 1960. This how most of the modern imitation junk navajas are made. The only way to get a "real" navaja, built by traditional means (Spanish "artesanal") these days is to have one custom made. If still producing, then the navajas of Exposito are exempted from these remarks.

Hope this helps
Cheers
Chris

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi, I am very new to this website and the use of forums, but am not new to collecting edged weapons.
I am hoping someone out there can help me put together some very hard to read script that is found on my pride and joy, being Australian, Spanish in not a language I grew up with and things get lost in the translation.
With the use of internet tranlators I have worked out the first of the three lines found on the blade and only partially deciphered the other two lines.
The first line reads "Si esta vibora te pica no hay remedio en la botica", "If this viper itches to you there is no remedy in the pharmacy".....too right I say, wouldn't want this fella drawn in anger against me.
The second line reads "___ defensora de mi dueno bas ta el _____ ______", " ___ defender of my owner you go to ______ ______".
The third line is " O le ____ __ Grava __ Labra" ....something like "it burdens working to him" with a few words missing.
Those of you in the know, may know of this inscription or be able to fill in the blanks if fluent in Spanish.
I also remember reading in other forum discussions about the Navaja and someone stating how hard some were to open. I must say this one being my fav in my collection is extremely easy to open, just a firm grip in the middle, useing my finger tips to just push the blade free of the horn handle and a flick of the wrist and hey fresto, a 16inch blade ratchets forth. I know why many call these the predesessor to the automatic flick knives we know of today.
Many thanks
Gav
aka Freebooter

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gav,

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hi, I am very new to this website and the use of forums, but am not new to collecting edged weapons.

Welcome to this forum.

The first line reads "Si esta vibora te pica no hay remedio en la botica",

First I must remind all forumites that right up to the the early decades of the 20th century, illiteracy in Spain was the norm, rather than the exception and cutlers coming from the lower classes were notoriously bad spellers. BTW You nerly got it right. The correct translation is: "If this snake bites you, there is no remedy in the pharmacy". "Vibora"is Spanish means snake, not viper as is often but erroneously thought. "Pica" literally means to pierce or sting, but in this instance it obviously refers to a bite.

The second line reads "___ defensora de mi dueno bas ta el _____ ______", "
___ defender of my owner you go to ______ ______".

Starts to get tricky. "defensora de mi dueño" is easy enough and means "defender of my owner".

"bas ta el" does not make much sense. If it is a misspelled "hasta el", which is probable, then it means "until (when)". However if what was intended was "basta el" then that means "(whatever) suffices".

The third line is " O le ____ __ Grava __ Labra" ....something like "it burdens working to him" with a few words missing.

With this I cannot do any better than you. "Grava" means "burden" and "Labra" "to work".

Those of you in the know, may know of this inscription or be able to fill in the blanks if fluent in Spanish.

Why don't you give us a photo of the inscription and the navaja?

I also remember reading in other forum discussions about the Navaja and someone stating how hard some were to open.

Most navajas used in Spain in the 19th century were French and fitted with what I call a "demi-lock" using a very powerful spine spring. These were notoriously difficult to open and close. The impediment in opening the ratcheting native variety was, of course, the ratchet. However, as blade size increased and if the the ratchet teeth were few and worn, as well as the pivot pin loosened up, then some could be flung open.

a 16inch blade ratchets forth.

That is an unusually long blade and probably an exhibition piece by a cutler. Most did not exceed 9 inches; Reason being the weight and strength limitations.

Cheers
Chris

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Chris, and sorry to everyone for a repedative blog, seems I added it three times....newbie to this.

I have uploaded a few photos of the large navaja and will add more of my navajas when time permits. I have also added an image of a framed collection I put together and various images I have on file of my Toledo navaja in the frame.

In the framed collection, all navaja are approx 16 inches long.

The top navaja is very unusual and I have no idea as to date or region, though I am thinking continental, first quater on the 20th century, it is a very well crafted knife, ring pull to top, razor sharp high carbon blade, aluminium handle with hard wood inserts and brass bolsters

The second in made by Alvero Garcia of Albecete, another razor sharp blade with floral decoratons to both sides and a Spanish inscription I have not yet even thought to deciper, though I will shortly and keep those who are interested updated. It is a very wide blade and has a large number of rachet teeth too, I wouldn't consider this blade loose at all but it does flick nicely in the hand.

The third is not Navaja but a mexican knife of the old wild west, marked C Camaren, just framed up for interest sake.

The Fourth has not locking mechanism at all, personally I think this may have been an apprentice peice???? crafted without the locking part of the blade in error, hence no locking assembly on the top of it. It has an extremely thick spine, heavy pointy and razor sharp blade (nearly took my whole finger off, hence it is framed now!!) , marked C.A and a strange little symbol above this. It sports the most beautiful high polish horn handle.

The fifth is a mid-late 20th century navaja with imitation mother of pearl grips.

With regards to the 6th one, a Toledo navaja, I beleive it to be late 1800s very early 1900s, though I one chap here in Australia said it to be a very modern tourist item...anyone have any take on these opinions. It has outstanding deep etched or chisled releif all over the blade and handle, it of an all metal construction and has Spanish inscriptions on both sides "Do not draw me without reason or store me without honour" and on the reverse side it says "Never a dent shall I suffer as Toledo was my Cradle" It has been gilded, blued and highly polished all over as seen in the images.

I would love to hear any input about any of these knives.

regards

Gav

[katana]

Hi Fernando,
I hope you don't mind me adding this, but this recently finished on eBay. I did bid ....but was not confident enough to bid too much....and (possibly) missed out on a bargain ?
I am not certain that this would be regarded as a Navaja as it is similar to knives described as 'Roman folders'. Whichever it is ...it is large. Blade approx. 25cms Opened approx. 53 cms

Any ideas

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/antique-foldin...QQcmdZViewItem

Freebooter, I am no expert, but you have some really nice examples

[fernando]

Hi David

Originally Posted by katana

....and (possibly) missed out on a bargain ?

I am not so good ( or don't know enough ) at evaluating things at distance.
Chris could tell you a lot more about this piece.
But i don't think you missed something valuable. You might have missed the bargain, money wise, but i don't think you missed a good collectible item.
To my ignorant eyes, the blade looks funny. The lock, besides not being working, looks itself locked . It looks as some extra device was added to it. But this must be because i never saw such pattern.
Again, Chris could help much further.
All the best
Fernando

[Gavin Nugent]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/antique-foldin...QQcmdZViewItem

Freebooter, I am no expert, but you have some really nice examples [/QUOTE]


Thanks Katana, a lot of hours has gone into sourcing these at the right price and presenting them for their future custodians. I am glad to hear you didn't go ahead with the knife in the link, not what I would call a sound investment. Keep looking, as I say, leave no stone unturned, there is treasure everywhere.

[cylord21]

A bit late, but just in case you have not seen it, here is a link from the old forum wich display an interesting 55" navaja from Santa Cruz or Albacete with inscriptions and red enamel paint filling the decoration chiselled or engraved on the blade. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001357.html

[Chris Evans]

Hi cylord21

Originally Posted by cylord21

A bit late, but just in case you have not seen it, here is a link from the old forum wich display an interesting 55" navaja from Santa Cruz or Albacete with inscriptions and red enamel paint filling the decoration chiselled or engraved on the blade. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001357.html

Thank you for reminding us. I do remember seeing that very old navaja. I am inclined to think that it was probably from Santa Cruz de Mudela rather than Albacete.

Of all the old navajas that I have seen, red was the only colour that I noted as having been used to fill in the engravings. It was only in the 50s and 60s the Spanish cutlers decided to put out polychromatic and very garish versions, using oil based enamels, all aimed at tourists. The vast majority featured the ever recurring "Recuerdo de..." (Souvenir of....) and all bore the Toledo brand, even if the cutler's workshop was in Albacete, the place that most came from. A few were quite decent but most were junk - In those decades the industry nearly disappeared.

Cheers
Chris