handgonne (handbüchse) from Sammlung Baumann aus Rothenburg ob der Tauber

Spiridonov · 31st December 2017, 12:37 AM

Total length is 100,5 cm, Barrel length is 21 cm, caliber is 34 mm
Sammlung Baumann aus Rothenburg ob der Tauber
(photo made by Borys Urbanski)
http://www.reichsstadtmuseum.rothenb...ndex.php?id=51

Marcus den toom · 31st December 2017, 08:18 AM

Great pictures by your friend, Alexander. The haquebut seems untouched overall.
The museum did date the piece a bit to early as the pronounced muzzle section would make this piece date around the 1460/70s.

The bore diameter seems to be original too, don't you think?

Andi · 31st December 2017, 02:37 PM

Some years ago I contacted the museum regarding information about the provenance of this piece. But there are no information available when or from where Baumann has got it.

fernando · 31st December 2017, 07:40 PM

Should i discrepancy in the museum description ?
If it has a recoil hook is a wall haquebut and not a horseman handbüchse ... right ?

corrado26 · 1st January 2018, 03:46 PM

As far as I am informed many of the object on display in this museum came from a very well known dealer in southern Germany. So maybe that this gun is from the same origin.
corrado26

Pukka Bundook · 1st January 2018, 04:54 PM

Fernando,

Happy New Year!

I wonder about the hook. Should it not be integral with the barrel ?
This hook appears attached to the stock and not part of the barrel. Can this be correct? I though our dear Matchlock taught us otherwise.

Best wishes,
R.

corrado26 · 1st January 2018, 04:58 PM

Just to Show you what is on offer in this field at the Moment over here, I post some fotos
corrado26

Marcus den toom · 1st January 2018, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Should i discrepancy in the museum description ?
If it has a recoil hook is a wall haquebut and not a horseman handbüchse ... right ?

Hi Nando,
It could be both true, as this illustration depicts. A Similar weird hook can be found with this gun
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Steinb%FCchse

fernando · 1st January 2018, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Fernando,

Happy New Year!

I wonder about the hook. Should it not be integral with the barrel ?
This hook appears attached to the stock and not part of the barrel. Can this be correct? I though our dear Matchlock taught us otherwise...

Happy new year to you too, Richard !
I wonder if we should widen such perspective, as here and there we see signs of hooks being attached to stocks; notwithstanding that in my humble opinion there are details in the example posted by Alexander that appear not consistent with a genuine setup ... i don't know

.
I am uploading the picture of a replica of a specimen dated 1425 kept in the Plzeň Museum. We see that the hook embraces both stock and barrel and, despite the picture is not that of the original, i see no need in the context for the replicator to give the hook a fake position; but we never know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

...Hi Nando,
It could be both true, as this illustration depicts. A Similar weird hook can be found with this gun ...

Well Marcus, some times these things are product of artists imagination, just like the ridiculous hook Michael pointed out in the thread you linked.
On the other hand, i can show you two other versions of the Schopettieri you have posted; one with the hook and the other without it, but all three with a different attire, so at the taste of the authors. In any case it seems that, if the hook was required in such case, it would be to prevent the recoil against that 'suspicious' holding device ... but maybe too thin to be true ?

.

Marcus den toom · 2nd January 2018, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Well Marcus, some times these things are product of artists imagination, just like the ridiculous hook Michael pointed out in the thread you linked.
On the other hand, i can show you two other versions of the Schopettieri you have posted; one with the hook and the other without it, but all three with a different attire, so at the taste of the authors. In any case it seems that, if the hook was required in such case, it would be to prevent the recoil against that 'suspicious' holding device ... but maybe too thin to be true ?

.

Hi Nando,

My remark was not perse related to the haquebut discussed here, but more towards your remark of there not beeing any horseman haquebuts.
The illustrations you posted seem of later date and are clearly all based on this attached illustration by Mariano di Iacopo (Mariano Taccola, also referred to during his life as the 'Archimedes of Siena') (1381-?1453). It is an illustration of a knight with what appears to be a Steinbuchse /haquebut.

The construction might look thin, but i doubt these haqeubuts to be all that big and the recoil must have been absorbed by the hook and gun rest and also by the person itself (see the attachement by means of a rope around the shoulders of the knight).
If this is a practical piece of gun, i doubt it and with the lack of fysical evidence (saddles with gunrest) i can't say if this is indeed just a fantasy or a real working life concept. Still the illustration is there and must have been considered as an option to fire from horseback.

fernando · 3rd January 2018, 02:51 PM

Hi Marcus,
So the first illustration you posted is also a later version of the original which, added to my two copies, makes Taccola be be proud of so much resource to his work.
Nevertheless what we are facing is imaginative/stylized ideas, produced by the master of devices not brought into practice. In other words we all agree that, the functional version of hand gonnes being used by horsemen was yet to be established, the hook being so far an illustrative appendix. I am not versed in dynamics but, i take it that the implements designed to hold still the gun, would have to be subject to serious ponderation as, it the shooting caused some sifnificant recoil, would not only be the saddle rest to tackle the impact but also the shooters breast sternum

.

Pukka Bundook · 3rd January 2018, 04:12 PM

Dear Fernando,

I too believe these images to be imaginative.
The 'rest' for the barrel could not be used as such, as the whole apparatus would merely sink down onto the horses neck. Recoil on the other hand, would tend to lift the barrel out of the fork, and just as you say, deliver the blow to the saddle, sternum, and if the barrel lifted much, possible the firer's face!
Even as a child when I first saw these images, I thought them fanciful, just like the camel images we see with a great big cannon tied to it's side!

31st December 2017, 12:37 AM	#1
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	handgonne (handbüchse) from Sammlung Baumann aus Rothenburg ob der Tauber Total length is 100,5 cm, Barrel length is 21 cm, caliber is 34 mm Sammlung Baumann aus Rothenburg ob der Tauber (photo made by Borys Urbanski) http://www.reichsstadtmuseum.rothenb...ndex.php?id=51 Attached Images Last edited by Spiridonov; 31st December 2017 at 12:56 AM.

1st January 2018, 04:58 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	Just to Show you what is on offer in this field at the Moment over here, I post some fotos corrado26 Attached Images

31st December 2017, 08:18 AM	#2
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	Great pictures by your friend, Alexander. The haquebut seems untouched overall. The museum did date the piece a bit to early as the pronounced muzzle section would make this piece date around the 1460/70s. The bore diameter seems to be original too, don't you think?

31st December 2017, 02:37 PM	#3
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Some years ago I contacted the museum regarding information about the provenance of this piece. But there are no information available when or from where Baumann has got it.

31st December 2017, 07:40 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Should i discrepancy in the museum description ? If it has a recoil hook is a wall haquebut and not a horseman handbüchse ... right ?

1st January 2018, 03:46 PM	#5
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	As far as I am informed many of the object on display in this museum came from a very well known dealer in southern Germany. So maybe that this gun is from the same origin. corrado26

1st January 2018, 04:54 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Fernando, Happy New Year! I wonder about the hook. Should it not be integral with the barrel ? This hook appears attached to the stock and not part of the barrel. Can this be correct? I though our dear Matchlock taught us otherwise. Best wishes, R.

3rd January 2018, 02:51 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Marcus, So the first illustration you posted is also a later version of the original which, added to my two copies, makes Taccola be be proud of so much resource to his work. Nevertheless what we are facing is imaginative/stylized ideas, produced by the master of devices not brought into practice. In other words we all agree that, the functional version of hand gonnes being used by horsemen was yet to be established, the hook being so far an illustrative appendix. I am not versed in dynamics but, i take it that the implements designed to hold still the gun, would have to be subject to serious ponderation as, it the shooting caused some sifnificant recoil, would not only be the saddle rest to tackle the impact but also the shooters breast sternum .

3rd January 2018, 04:12 PM	#12
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Dear Fernando, I too believe these images to be imaginative. The 'rest' for the barrel could not be used as such, as the whole apparatus would merely sink down onto the horses neck. Recoil on the other hand, would tend to lift the barrel out of the fork, and just as you say, deliver the blow to the saddle, sternum, and if the barrel lifted much, possible the firer's face! Even as a child when I first saw these images, I thought them fanciful, just like the camel images we see with a great big cannon tied to it's side!