Scottish Broad Sword

corrado26 · 23rd December 2019, 02:49 PM

Got this morning the sword in the fotos. It has in the fuller on both sides of its blade the letters "- I N - M I N I -". Does anyone have an idea what this could stand for?
Regards
corrado26

Victrix · 23rd December 2019, 03:32 PM

Beautiful sword Corrado. Santa must have arrived early in your parts of the world.

Typically it’s a Latin motto or quote which is continued on the other side of the blade. I’m unable to guess which one.

corrado26 · 23rd December 2019, 04:23 PM

On both sides of the blade is the same lettering!

Victrix · 23rd December 2019, 05:42 PM

OK. As I understand it the blades could typically have a family motto or some Latin quote on it. I guess it could have been abbreviated. I have a schiavona with a not too dissimilar blade which has half a Latin motto on each side of the blade.

Alternatively, I guess the text could represent a prayer like (I)N (N)OMINE...but not sure what MINI would stand for. It’s not a palindrome but not far off.

corrado26 · 25th December 2019, 09:31 AM

Is there really no idea what this "NI - MINI" could stand for?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th December 2019, 03:30 PM

This is a long and ongoing puzzle on sword blades...

Inlays on blades were nothing new in the 12th century. For centuries before, the Ulfberht and Ingelrii sword firms had been marking their products with their names inlayed along the fuller, as had other smiths. In the 11th century, the type X swords began to show a distinction in their decoration – while one side of the sword still bears the maker’s name, the other was inlayed with a religious inscription. The most common was “INNOMINEDOMINI” (“In the name of God”), although this is often misspelled.

Please see ..https://issuu.com/horsebackarchers/d...armour_from_pr and this is one of those open books available to read on line... thus Oakeshott can be read and at chapter 12 there is a lot of detail on the latin inscription noted here.

corrado26 · 25th December 2019, 04:42 PM

Many, many thanks, I knew that I get help from here. The problem is now to date this blade. Is it really so much older than the hilt?

corrado26

Battara · 25th December 2019, 09:23 PM

What beautiful condition!

My question: is this Scottish or actually English? The top of the hilt looks more English to me.

M ELEY · 25th December 2019, 10:29 PM

My vote is Scottish. The English pommels were still more 'bun-shaped'. Also, from the style of the basket, this appears post-Rebellion, so many of the Scottish swords of the next period (1770's on) were essentially Scottish troops serving the English, when the basket patterns began to look more 'English' in style. Beautiful basket!

Battara · 26th December 2019, 12:15 AM

Thanks Mark for that illumination.

Jim McDougall · 26th December 2019, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

My vote is Scottish. The English pommels were still more 'bun-shaped'. Also, from the style of the basket, this appears post-Rebellion, so many of the Scottish swords of the next period (1770's on) were essentially Scottish troops serving the English, when the basket patterns began to look more 'English' in style. Beautiful basket!

Spot on Cap'n!
Scottish hilts had the open furrow or ring around the pommel where the arms of the guard joined, while English typically used screws. Also, the English hilts were more 'workman' like without the pierced designs, which were often regarded as Jacobite symbols though there is no clear definition of what these were specifically.
The 'ram horns' ( a term only used by Mazansky as far as most regard) would not be on an English hilt.
As you have noted, 'Scottish' designed hilts were still produced in the 'garrison' towns post Rebellion (after 1746) Primarily Glasgow and by Scottish hammermen for the forces of Scottish units now in the British army.

Regiments such as the Royal Scots Greys still used Scottish style hilts, while others used the less Scottish styles with plain plates and there were the types for Black Watch made in Birmingham.

The brisk trade of importing blades from Solingen remained key through the 18th century,and many of the blades remained in circulation for many years.

As far as I have known on the inscription on the blade here, it may be a corruption or cognate of Latin ' in mind', but cannot recall the exact details. It seems like German piecing of a phrase.

As always, I would defer to the real experts here on these, Eljay and Cathey!

kronckew · 26th December 2019, 07:42 AM

Scotland was an independent State until the Act of Union in 1707, after that the separate states of England, Wales, Ireland became "The United Kingdom of Great Britain".

Therefore after that, the inhabitants of Great Britain were 'British' as well as Scots or English, etc. As the combined Parliament was in London and was originally just 'English', It usually referred to the Union as 'England' and the subjects as English out of habit. especially after Culloden saw the end of the Jacobite rebellion referred to earlier.

This has lessened over time, with the secession of Ireland, the UK retained the northern Ulster County as 'Northern Ireland. Old tour Guides of 'England' usually included the other nations of the Union.

The states other than England now have their own assemblies with devolved powers from the central Parliament, tho England does not have it's own. Yet.

Anyway for matters pertaining to the whole, citizens are still occasionally referred to as English (or British). The Union uses English as the Official language, the individual states have their own languages, Wales uses it's officially on it's signage as well as English.

'English' swords can mean swords of the whole union, or just from England without rhyme nor reason. Scottish swords would more naturally pertain to Scottish pattern weapons which can be made anywhere in the UK.

Confusing isn't it?

p.s.- For tourists from outside the UK, Don't call a Scot 'English or he'll give you a good thrashing, or buy you a beer and spend an hour telling you in a barely intelligible dialect he will insist is english, why he is NOT English (Sassenach). Buy that one a beer in return before leaving. Less likely in Wales, they'll probably correct you tho, they're Welsh. English that buy summer homes in Wales have been known to have their houses torched, thankfully that tend to happen when they are not in residence. I am only a few miles from Wales, I do not, as yet, need a passport or visa to go there.

NI - some will not mind, some may correct you that they are British, some may thrash you. Some may do worse.

The UK armed forces however will more than likely band together in good natured bar fights (or real ones) against the forces of nations outside the UK and thrash them. US Yanks and Canadian or Commonwealth forces may be adopted as 'English' allies against non-English speaking nations. All in fun of course...

MINI? Made In Northern Ireland?

(just joking)

corrado26 · 26th December 2019, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

MINI? Made In Northern Ireland?

corrado26 · 28th December 2019, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

“INNOMINEDOMINI” (“In the name of God”),

Ibrahijm, I think you got it: “INNOMINEDOMINI” should be the solution.
Thanks a lot
corrado26

Jens Nordlunde · 28th December 2019, 10:40 PM

Ciomments speared the readers:-)

dralin23 · 24th January 2020, 09:28 AM

hello,
i noticed that an nearby similar marked blade was here discussed.
i show these in an indian sword mounted blade also in an other thread here.
but it is very intresting to see that these letters was also stitched in these basket hilted sword.
in my sword blade are the letters - IHN- MINI- and than was an running wolve but in thee wrong direction at the blade...
i asked me since some weeks how was it read and what is the sinn of these letters.
i asked in the solingen sword museum in the hope that they could help me but i received only a short answer that it is an german blade from the 17. th. ct. nothing else.
now i hope that i could learn something more about it with your opinions.

thank you!!

fernando · 24th January 2020, 11:56 AM

Dralin, the answer to your question is found above in post #14. Also you may find some additional comments in your OTHER POST in THE EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread.

25th December 2019, 03:30 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	This is a long and ongoing puzzle on sword blades... Inlays on blades were nothing new in the 12th century. For centuries before, the Ulfberht and Ingelrii sword firms had been marking their products with their names inlayed along the fuller, as had other smiths. In the 11th century, the type X swords began to show a distinction in their decoration – while one side of the sword still bears the maker’s name, the other was inlayed with a religious inscription. The most common was “INNOMINEDOMINI” (“In the name of God”), although this is often misspelled. Please see ..https://issuu.com/horsebackarchers/d...armour_from_pr and this is one of those open books available to read on line... thus Oakeshott can be read and at chapter 12 there is a lot of detail on the latin inscription noted here. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th December 2019 at 03:47 PM.

26th December 2019, 07:42 AM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	Scotland was an independent State until the Act of Union in 1707, after that the separate states of England, Wales, Ireland became "The United Kingdom of Great Britain". Therefore after that, the inhabitants of Great Britain were 'British' as well as Scots or English, etc. As the combined Parliament was in London and was originally just 'English', It usually referred to the Union as 'England' and the subjects as English out of habit. especially after Culloden saw the end of the Jacobite rebellion referred to earlier. This has lessened over time, with the secession of Ireland, the UK retained the northern Ulster County as 'Northern Ireland. Old tour Guides of 'England' usually included the other nations of the Union. The states other than England now have their own assemblies with devolved powers from the central Parliament, tho England does not have it's own. Yet. Anyway for matters pertaining to the whole, citizens are still occasionally referred to as English (or British). The Union uses English as the Official language, the individual states have their own languages, Wales uses it's officially on it's signage as well as English. 'English' swords can mean swords of the whole union, or just from England without rhyme nor reason. Scottish swords would more naturally pertain to Scottish pattern weapons which can be made anywhere in the UK. Confusing isn't it? p.s.- For tourists from outside the UK, Don't call a Scot 'English or he'll give you a good thrashing, or buy you a beer and spend an hour telling you in a barely intelligible dialect he will insist is english, why he is NOT English (Sassenach). Buy that one a beer in return before leaving. Less likely in Wales, they'll probably correct you tho, they're Welsh. English that buy summer homes in Wales have been known to have their houses torched, thankfully that tend to happen when they are not in residence. I am only a few miles from Wales, I do not, as yet, need a passport or visa to go there. NI - some will not mind, some may correct you that they are British, some may thrash you. Some may do worse. The UK armed forces however will more than likely band together in good natured bar fights (or real ones) against the forces of nations outside the UK and thrash them. US Yanks and Canadian or Commonwealth forces may be adopted as 'English' allies against non-English speaking nations. All in fun of course... MINI? Made In Northern Ireland? (just joking) Last edited by kronckew; 26th December 2019 at 08:19 AM.

24th January 2020, 09:28 AM	#16
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	an other pata sword with an marked Blade hello, i noticed that an nearby similar marked blade was here discussed. i show these in an indian sword mounted blade also in an other thread here. but it is very intresting to see that these letters was also stitched in these basket hilted sword. in my sword blade are the letters - IHN- MINI- and than was an running wolve but in thee wrong direction at the blade... i asked me since some weeks how was it read and what is the sinn of these letters. i asked in the solingen sword museum in the hope that they could help me but i received only a short answer that it is an german blade from the 17. th. ct. nothing else. now i hope that i could learn something more about it with your opinions. thank you!! Attached Images

23rd December 2019, 02:49 PM	#1
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	Scottish Broad Sword Got this morning the sword in the fotos. It has in the fuller on both sides of its blade the letters "- I N - M I N I -". Does anyone have an idea what this could stand for? Regards corrado26 Attached Images

23rd December 2019, 03:32 PM	#2
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 713	Beautiful sword Corrado. Santa must have arrived early in your parts of the world. Typically it’s a Latin motto or quote which is continued on the other side of the blade. I’m unable to guess which one.

23rd December 2019, 04:23 PM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	On both sides of the blade is the same lettering!

23rd December 2019, 05:42 PM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 713	OK. As I understand it the blades could typically have a family motto or some Latin quote on it. I guess it could have been abbreviated. I have a schiavona with a not too dissimilar blade which has half a Latin motto on each side of the blade. Alternatively, I guess the text could represent a prayer like (I)N (N)OMINE...but not sure what MINI would stand for. It’s not a palindrome but not far off.

25th December 2019, 09:31 AM	#5
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	Is there really no idea what this "NI - MINI" could stand for?

25th December 2019, 04:42 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	Many, many thanks, I knew that I get help from here. The problem is now to date this blade. Is it really so much older than the hilt? corrado26

25th December 2019, 09:23 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	What beautiful condition! My question: is this Scottish or actually English? The top of the hilt looks more English to me.

25th December 2019, 10:29 PM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	My vote is Scottish. The English pommels were still more 'bun-shaped'. Also, from the style of the basket, this appears post-Rebellion, so many of the Scottish swords of the next period (1770's on) were essentially Scottish troops serving the English, when the basket patterns began to look more 'English' in style. Beautiful basket!

26th December 2019, 12:15 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Thanks Mark for that illumination.

28th December 2019, 10:40 PM	#15
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ciomments speared the readers:-)

24th January 2020, 11:56 AM	#17
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Dralin, the answer to your question is found above in post #14. Also you may find some additional comments in your OTHER POST in THE EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread.