African swords as tools?

Bill M · 16th November 2007, 10:33 AM

Someone asked me recently if most African swords were used primarily as weapons against people and animals, or for ceremonial purposes, --- or were they also used as tools like the Nepalese khukuri or machettes of other areas, were used as both?

It seems to me that the majority of African swords (excepting sickles) I have were not meant to be used as tools.

Opinions?

katana · 16th November 2007, 11:58 AM

Hi Bill,
I have seen film footage of Masai using their Same long swords as machetes. Cutting down brush to make small temporary enclosures to protect them from animals 'over night'. It might explain why many later Same were made from modified British machete blades.
African tribal members tend to 'travel light' so it is quite likely that functional weaponary had secondary duties as a utillity 'tool' and probably vis versa. Modern day tribal warriors now tend to carry a knife and an AK47 .... and I cannot think of utillitarian use for a semi-automatic

VANDOO · 16th November 2007, 06:36 PM

I WOULD IMAGINE THE VERY FANCY THROWING SWORDS AND CEREMONIAL ONES WERE LEFT AT HOME AND A MORE SIMPLE BLADE WAS CARRIED FOR EVERDAY USE. UNLESS ONE WAS GOING TO WAR OR INTO AN AREA WHERE TROUBLE COULD BE EXPECTED THEY PROBABLY JUST CARRIED A SPEAR, THROWING STICK AND SOME SORT OF KNIFE. TRIBAL PEOPLE USUALY HAVE THE SPEAR AND THROWING STICK BECAUSE YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN SOME CRITTER MIGHT COME ALONG THAT WOULD MAKE A GOOD DINNER.

I IMAGINE ONLY THE MORE WEALTHY TRIBAL MEMBERS HAD MORE THAN ONE SIMPLE SWORD OR KNIFE AND THE CEREMONIAL OR FANCY ONES BELONGED TO THE CHIEF OR CEO.

JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT AS I DON'T REMEMBER IT FROM A PREVIOUS TRIBAL LIFE

Jim McDougall · 16th November 2007, 09:21 PM

THE CEREMONIAL OR FANCY ONES BELONGED TO THE CHIEF OR CEO.

JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT AS I DON'T REMEMBER IT FROM A PREVIOUS TRIBAL LIFE

[/QUOTE]

LOL!!!

Vandoo, thats fantastic! I never thought of the chief as a CEO! Modern corporate tribalism.......its a jungle out there!!!!!

Excellent topic Bill. It seems that the weapon/tool duality has existed from prehistoric times as tools themselves became weapons in many cases, and this prevailed in tribal situations, in fact to present times. In most cases as mentioned, the sickle or weapons similar such as the parabolic shotel could often have had agrarian use, as well as the machete which is more commonly seen in West African regions and regions of dense vegetation or forest.

It is my impression that predominantly in many African regions, swords are considered ceremonial, while bows, arrows, spears, clubs and axes predominate as weapons of tribesmen, differing widely by tribe and region of course. Obviously in many cases such as in North Africa in the Sahara and Sudan, swords are typically both elements of costume and secondary weapons that are indeed intended for use, and would not be used as a tool.Swords are also found as secondary weapons to the south, such as the seme' of the Maasai and these may be used at times for chopping as the machete.However it seems many of the unusual Congo swords are usually more ceremonially or dress inclined though combat usable, and again, would not be used for utility.

While swords seem to remain traditional elements of costume and capable of intended use, they seem unlikely to find use as tools, except in the case of sickles or machets as noted above. Naturally many forms of axe and especially most forms of knife, would be likely to be used in a utility sense.

When all is considered, virtually anything can become a 'weapon of opportunity' ..on the news as I am writing this it was reported that a guy tried to commit a robbery...'armed' with a stapler!

In combat, "anything goes"! and when one is working and a certain tool needed is not available...same rule!

I cant say how many times I've seen old bayonets used to dig up weeds.

All best regards,
Jim

Bill M · 16th November 2007, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In combat, "anything goes"! and when one is working and a certain tool needed is not available...same rule!

I cant say how many times I've seen old bayonets used to dig up weeds.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim,

I was at an antique market last weekend and a seller had an actual bayonet shaped like a small, sharpened shovel. About 7" long and maybe 4" wide.

American Civil War. It fit the 45-70 rifle. It even had a scabbard with "US" on it.

He said that it was very rare because even though a number of them were made the troops disliked the idea of trying to bayonet an enemy with a small shovel on the end of a rifle, that they threw them away!

It was $1200 if anyone wants me to put them in touch with the seller. he had a lot of quality items and the shovel bayonet looked well made.

I have done a Google search and found that they are indeed rare. In fact in the immortal words of the "Highlander,"

"There can be only one!"

Nonoy Tan · 17th November 2007, 01:28 AM

I totally agree with Jim. Some peoples have even taken a further step by modifying the weapon design to suit another purpose. Here is an example of a spear from Northern Luzon of the Philippines (i.e. Cordillera area) which has been made to be a walking cane as well (or vice-versa).

The other photo shows a digging stick (for harvesting root crops) which can easily be used as a dagger too. Also from Northern Luzon, Philippines.

Jim McDougall · 17th November 2007, 05:55 AM

That is really something Bill, it seemed I had heard of something like that but cant remember where. It seems there have been so many outlandish creations in the realm of military weaponry intended to be multipurpose, and this one really gets a gold star!
Nonoy Tan thank you for sharing the interesting items from the Philippines!
The cane/spear combination reminds me of the interesting concealed weapons carried by mendicants in India.

This really is an intriguing topic and I'm glad you brought it up Bill !!

The item that comes to mind for me, speaking of bayonets is the saw tooth back Schmitt-Rubin sword bayonet used by German infantry in WWI. These were of course to serve also as saws for materials in entrenchments and other field utility use, however the allies saw these as terrible inhumane weapons intended to produce horrifying wounds. With this tale perpetuated, the troops fiercely reacted to any German soldiers with one of these gruesome looking bayonets and often shot them without chance to surrender. The truth was of course that as a weapon, the sawback was entirely counterproductive and impaired penetration or if it did penetrate, could not be withdrawn, leaving its user effectively disarmed.

There are of course many combination weapons that are hybrids of firearms and edged weapons.....but with weapon and tool...now thats esoterica!
Hope we'll see some more examples.

Good note on the Highlander Bill!!!

One of my favorites!!

All very best regards,
Jim

16th November 2007, 10:33 AM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	African swords as tools? Someone asked me recently if most African swords were used primarily as weapons against people and animals, or for ceremonial purposes, --- or were they also used as tools like the Nepalese khukuri or machettes of other areas, were used as both? It seems to me that the majority of African swords (excepting sickles) I have were not meant to be used as tools. Opinions?

17th November 2007, 01:28 AM	#6
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	I totally agree with Jim. Some peoples have even taken a further step by modifying the weapon design to suit another purpose. Here is an example of a spear from Northern Luzon of the Philippines (i.e. Cordillera area) which has been made to be a walking cane as well (or vice-versa). The other photo shows a digging stick (for harvesting root crops) which can easily be used as a dagger too. Also from Northern Luzon, Philippines. Attached Images

16th November 2007, 11:58 AM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Bill, I have seen film footage of Masai using their Same long swords as machetes. Cutting down brush to make small temporary enclosures to protect them from animals 'over night'. It might explain why many later Same were made from modified British machete blades. African tribal members tend to 'travel light' so it is quite likely that functional weaponary had secondary duties as a utillity 'tool' and probably vis versa. Modern day tribal warriors now tend to carry a knife and an AK47 .... and I cannot think of utillitarian use for a semi-automatic

16th November 2007, 06:36 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD IMAGINE THE VERY FANCY THROWING SWORDS AND CEREMONIAL ONES WERE LEFT AT HOME AND A MORE SIMPLE BLADE WAS CARRIED FOR EVERDAY USE. UNLESS ONE WAS GOING TO WAR OR INTO AN AREA WHERE TROUBLE COULD BE EXPECTED THEY PROBABLY JUST CARRIED A SPEAR, THROWING STICK AND SOME SORT OF KNIFE. TRIBAL PEOPLE USUALY HAVE THE SPEAR AND THROWING STICK BECAUSE YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN SOME CRITTER MIGHT COME ALONG THAT WOULD MAKE A GOOD DINNER. I IMAGINE ONLY THE MORE WEALTHY TRIBAL MEMBERS HAD MORE THAN ONE SIMPLE SWORD OR KNIFE AND THE CEREMONIAL OR FANCY ONES BELONGED TO THE CHIEF OR CEO. JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT AS I DON'T REMEMBER IT FROM A PREVIOUS TRIBAL LIFE

16th November 2007, 09:21 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	THE CEREMONIAL OR FANCY ONES BELONGED TO THE CHIEF OR CEO. JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT AS I DON'T REMEMBER IT FROM A PREVIOUS TRIBAL LIFE [/QUOTE] LOL!!! Vandoo, thats fantastic! I never thought of the chief as a CEO! Modern corporate tribalism.......its a jungle out there!!!!! Excellent topic Bill. It seems that the weapon/tool duality has existed from prehistoric times as tools themselves became weapons in many cases, and this prevailed in tribal situations, in fact to present times. In most cases as mentioned, the sickle or weapons similar such as the parabolic shotel could often have had agrarian use, as well as the machete which is more commonly seen in West African regions and regions of dense vegetation or forest. It is my impression that predominantly in many African regions, swords are considered ceremonial, while bows, arrows, spears, clubs and axes predominate as weapons of tribesmen, differing widely by tribe and region of course. Obviously in many cases such as in North Africa in the Sahara and Sudan, swords are typically both elements of costume and secondary weapons that are indeed intended for use, and would not be used as a tool.Swords are also found as secondary weapons to the south, such as the seme' of the Maasai and these may be used at times for chopping as the machete.However it seems many of the unusual Congo swords are usually more ceremonially or dress inclined though combat usable, and again, would not be used for utility. While swords seem to remain traditional elements of costume and capable of intended use, they seem unlikely to find use as tools, except in the case of sickles or machets as noted above. Naturally many forms of axe and especially most forms of knife, would be likely to be used in a utility sense. When all is considered, virtually anything can become a 'weapon of opportunity' ..on the news as I am writing this it was reported that a guy tried to commit a robbery...'armed' with a stapler! In combat, "anything goes"! and when one is working and a certain tool needed is not available...same rule! I cant say how many times I've seen old bayonets used to dig up weeds. All best regards, Jim

17th November 2007, 05:55 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	That is really something Bill, it seemed I had heard of something like that but cant remember where. It seems there have been so many outlandish creations in the realm of military weaponry intended to be multipurpose, and this one really gets a gold star! Nonoy Tan thank you for sharing the interesting items from the Philippines! The cane/spear combination reminds me of the interesting concealed weapons carried by mendicants in India. This really is an intriguing topic and I'm glad you brought it up Bill !! The item that comes to mind for me, speaking of bayonets is the saw tooth back Schmitt-Rubin sword bayonet used by German infantry in WWI. These were of course to serve also as saws for materials in entrenchments and other field utility use, however the allies saw these as terrible inhumane weapons intended to produce horrifying wounds. With this tale perpetuated, the troops fiercely reacted to any German soldiers with one of these gruesome looking bayonets and often shot them without chance to surrender. The truth was of course that as a weapon, the sawback was entirely counterproductive and impaired penetration or if it did penetrate, could not be withdrawn, leaving its user effectively disarmed. There are of course many combination weapons that are hybrids of firearms and edged weapons.....but with weapon and tool...now thats esoterica! Hope we'll see some more examples. Good note on the Highlander Bill!!! One of my favorites!! All very best regards, Jim