Nice old knife...origins? Use?

katana · 13th August 2007, 12:49 PM

A nice old knife, horn (green) slabs, held on with 6 steel/iron pins. The blade is hollow ground 5" long. OAL 8.5". The decorative 'semi circular petrusion' either side of the blade next to the handle (not sure what to call it

) is lead alloy/pewter? Has anyone able to identify its origins? name and/or use? Thank you

David

ariel · 13th August 2007, 12:52 PM

Looks like a Cretan one.

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2007, 01:44 PM

Aside from Ariels observation, it would be interesting to know more about the details present on this knife. The decoration on the back of the blade seems to be a crosshatch pattern with dots, is this style known on any other edged weapons ?
If the mounts are lead or pewter, it sounds like a very modern example.
Best regards,
Jim

katana · 13th August 2007, 01:56 PM

Hi Ariel,
thank you for your reply

...a search of the forum gave additional clues...

".....I would also say that they look a bit more modern, towards early 1900s, because of the lack of proper decoration on the metal strip between the handles. At the 1870s time, still most daggers had a scroll floral decoration engraved on this metal script. The simple "zig-zag" decoration starts latter, maybe from 1890s and then in 1920s or so we have no decaration at all, as one of the examples. Industrial revolution affected all societies, so less time was devoted to a specific knife......." Quote from Eftihis from this thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Cretan

As this knife has scroll decoration, can I assume it is around 1870 in date ? The blade on mine also has the remains of scroll/foilage engraving with is heavily worn. The very dark patination seems to suggest late 19th c.
Could someone tell me from what animal the horn is from, is it naturally greenish in colour or is it dyed ?

I also got the impression (from other threads on these knives) that older versions of these knives are relatively rare.....is this the case?

Regards David

katana · 13th August 2007, 05:10 PM

Hi Jim,
sorry I missed your post ...we posted at similar times ...which probably explains why. Nice to hear from you

The overall impression of this knife is it has some age (especially the blade) The blade spine is indeed decorated with cross hatching and dots. I have also found that the decorated metal 'sandwiched' between the handle slabs is silver or silver alloy (when rubbed with cloth I get a black residue)

The lead/pewter is in fact the same 'silver' as the handle, It appeared to be seperate pieces but is part of the handle, the 'thumb wear through' (shown in one of the photos, the 6th one from the top) gave this impression....my mistake

My excuse for this mistake is that I was up most of the night watching the 'shooting stars' as earth passes through the path of a comet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/weather/perseids.shtml

So I've been half asleep with a neck ache for most of the day....not complaining ..it was worth it

Kind Regards David

Yannis · 14th August 2007, 10:22 AM

It is a Cretan knife and IMHO it is at least 100 old. The handle is made from goat horn.

I suppose Eftihis is on vacations so he didnt answer your questions

katana · 14th August 2007, 06:54 PM

Thank you for your opinion Yannis

I definately feel that this knife is old and your suggestion of over a 'century' seems highly likely. Shame there wasn't a scabbard.....are they leather covered wood ? Has anyone got a pic of a scabbard....as I would like to try and make one for it.

If anyone has any more information or comments I will be grateful if you could post. This is my first Cretan knife and know very little about them, thanks

David

Yannis · 15th August 2007, 10:29 AM

Here are two simple scabbards. Leather on wood. Sometimes there is a metallic ring on the throat of the scabbard and metallic tip.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=cretan

kronckew · 15th August 2007, 12:39 PM

Crete is still making these knives, here's a maybe not quite so fancy general purpose knife:

6" hunting knife, couple of years old. synthetic scabbard, olive wood scales, 3mm blade thickness.
marked xania - armenis, a local brand made by apostolis in xania.
(and a name apparently also used by other cretan knifesmiths in imitation)
apparently when he moved to xania 45 years ago the locals thought he was an armenian

he isn't. he was a greek born in turkey.

i understand he's getting old & not making many anymore, most of the competition has died out, so there may
not be many more made by hand anymore....

(the folder at top is a french Marjacq twistlock in ebony - 3 3/8" Hi carbon steel blade)

for more info on cretan knives of a much higher caliber & of the more traditional style see the Cretan Knife Website

eftihis · 28th August 2007, 01:57 PM

Hi David, it is a good, ordinary working example of a cretan knife, nothing special thought. Late 19th to early 20th century. I would suggest to leave it as it is, utherwise find a scabbard from a finish pukko, it fits well if you find the same size.

13th August 2007, 12:49 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Nice old knife...origins? Use? A nice old knife, horn (green) slabs, held on with 6 steel/iron pins. The blade is hollow ground 5" long. OAL 8.5". The decorative 'semi circular petrusion' either side of the blade next to the handle (not sure what to call it ) is lead alloy/pewter? Has anyone able to identify its origins? name and/or use? Thank you David Attached Images

15th August 2007, 12:39 PM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	Crete is still making these knives, here's a maybe not quite so fancy general purpose knife: 6" hunting knife, couple of years old. synthetic scabbard, olive wood scales, 3mm blade thickness. marked xania - armenis, a local brand made by apostolis in xania. (and a name apparently also used by other cretan knifesmiths in imitation) apparently when he moved to xania 45 years ago the locals thought he was an armenian he isn't. he was a greek born in turkey. i understand he's getting old & not making many anymore, most of the competition has died out, so there may not be many more made by hand anymore.... (the folder at top is a french Marjacq twistlock in ebony - 3 3/8" Hi carbon steel blade) for more info on cretan knives of a much higher caliber & of the more traditional style see the Cretan Knife Website Last edited by kronckew; 15th August 2007 at 12:58 PM.

13th August 2007, 12:52 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Looks like a Cretan one.

13th August 2007, 01:44 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Aside from Ariels observation, it would be interesting to know more about the details present on this knife. The decoration on the back of the blade seems to be a crosshatch pattern with dots, is this style known on any other edged weapons ? If the mounts are lead or pewter, it sounds like a very modern example. Best regards, Jim

13th August 2007, 01:56 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Ariel, thank you for your reply ...a search of the forum gave additional clues... ".....I would also say that they look a bit more modern, towards early 1900s, because of the lack of proper decoration on the metal strip between the handles. At the 1870s time, still most daggers had a scroll floral decoration engraved on this metal script. The simple "zig-zag" decoration starts latter, maybe from 1890s and then in 1920s or so we have no decaration at all, as one of the examples. Industrial revolution affected all societies, so less time was devoted to a specific knife......." Quote from Eftihis from this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Cretan As this knife has scroll decoration, can I assume it is around 1870 in date ? The blade on mine also has the remains of scroll/foilage engraving with is heavily worn. The very dark patination seems to suggest late 19th c. Could someone tell me from what animal the horn is from, is it naturally greenish in colour or is it dyed ? I also got the impression (from other threads on these knives) that older versions of these knives are relatively rare.....is this the case? Regards David

13th August 2007, 05:10 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Jim, sorry I missed your post ...we posted at similar times ...which probably explains why. Nice to hear from you The overall impression of this knife is it has some age (especially the blade) The blade spine is indeed decorated with cross hatching and dots. I have also found that the decorated metal 'sandwiched' between the handle slabs is silver or silver alloy (when rubbed with cloth I get a black residue) The lead/pewter is in fact the same 'silver' as the handle, It appeared to be seperate pieces but is part of the handle, the 'thumb wear through' (shown in one of the photos, the 6th one from the top) gave this impression....my mistake My excuse for this mistake is that I was up most of the night watching the 'shooting stars' as earth passes through the path of a comet. http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/weather/perseids.shtml So I've been half asleep with a neck ache for most of the day....not complaining ..it was worth it Kind Regards David

14th August 2007, 10:22 AM	#6
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	It is a Cretan knife and IMHO it is at least 100 old. The handle is made from goat horn. I suppose Eftihis is on vacations so he didnt answer your questions

14th August 2007, 06:54 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you for your opinion Yannis I definately feel that this knife is old and your suggestion of over a 'century' seems highly likely. Shame there wasn't a scabbard.....are they leather covered wood ? Has anyone got a pic of a scabbard....as I would like to try and make one for it. If anyone has any more information or comments I will be grateful if you could post. This is my first Cretan knife and know very little about them, thanks David

15th August 2007, 10:29 AM	#8
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Here are two simple scabbards. Leather on wood. Sometimes there is a metallic ring on the throat of the scabbard and metallic tip. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=cretan

28th August 2007, 01:57 PM	#10
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Hi David, it is a good, ordinary working example of a cretan knife, nothing special thought. Late 19th to early 20th century. I would suggest to leave it as it is, utherwise find a scabbard from a finish pukko, it fits well if you find the same size.