Wootz or Mechanical Damascus?

TVV · 4th March 2008, 06:44 PM

A friend of mine in Bulgaria recently acquired this sword, with a Turkish style hilt and what appears to be an Indian blade, based on the existing ricasso. He cleaned and etched the blade and was pleasantly surprised to discover a nice pattern. The question is, is this wootz or not?
I personally am inclined to think that it is pattern welded, but I am interested in your opinion. Also, any comments on the origin of the sword and its dating are more than welcome.

Thank you,

Teodor

Lew · 4th March 2008, 06:48 PM

Looks Like wootz to me Kirk Nirban if I am spelling it correctly?

Lew

Jeff D · 4th March 2008, 07:05 PM

Hi Teodor,

I vote mechanical damascus. With that activity (tight swirls) most likely Indian made.

All the Best
Jeff

ALEX · 4th March 2008, 07:07 PM

Teodor, I understand your inclanation to think of this as mechanical. It does show well formed, bold and prominent pattern. Jeff also has a good point about the mechanical "swirls".
However, as pointed out by Lew, it displays some planar distortions, and what clearly appears to be a "ladder" formation, aka "Kirk Narduban" wootz pattern (and very attractive one

So, I am with Lew.
Let's see what others think...
My guess on age, and very distant one, would be late 18/early 19th Cent.

galvano · 4th March 2008, 07:44 PM

mechanical damascus
galvano

RSWORD · 4th March 2008, 08:17 PM

I also vote for a mechanical damascus and would love to see it polished up properly as the blades current state doesn't allow the full appreciation of the pattern. While you do see a vertical distortion it doesn't appear to be regularly appearing at least from the pics we can see. Also, a ladder pattern is a mechanical manipulation of wootz and this can also be done in a pattern weld. Another note is the lack of a pattern at all along the edge. This would suggest the blade has a high carbon inserted edge plate with the mechanical damascus "cheeks". An inserted edge along with the active pattern does seem to point to India as a possible origin of the blade.

TVV · 4th March 2008, 08:45 PM

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your quick replies. I chose the photos, on which the pattern resembled wootz the most on purpose. Now here are some additional photos, which I think will support Rick's excellent observations.

Regards,

Teodor

ariel · 4th March 2008, 10:52 PM

I vote for mechanical.
There are plenty of "ladder-like" mechanical examples in Manfred Sachse's book. Rick is unquestionably correct: ladder is an artificial embellishment and can be applied to either variety of damascus-type blades. And, of course, the inserted edge is a dead giveaway.
Nice blade, no doubt.

Lew · 4th March 2008, 11:00 PM

Yes now that better pics are posted I must change my opinion mechanical it is.

Lew

Andrew · 5th March 2008, 03:09 AM

+1 Mechanical. +1 Indian.

ALEX · 5th March 2008, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Yes now that better pics are posted I must change my opinion mechanical it is.

Lew

As I mentioned earlier - I am with Lew

and especially after seeing the rest of the blade:-)
Nice blade!

ALEX · 19th March 2008, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

...
I vote mechanical damascus. With that activity (tight swirls) most likely Indian made.

All the Best
Jeff

Speaking about swirls: what do you think about this image? The swirls occur in wootz as well?

Jens Nordlunde · 19th March 2008, 07:05 PM

Like said before, most likely Indian and mechanical. Here is a picture of the ladder in mechanical pattern.

rand · 19th March 2008, 08:57 PM

When I think of mechanical patterns a topography map comes to mind. If the pattern looks map like it is a mechanically made pattern. The pattern on this sword looks very map like as when elevation changes are noted, so to me its a pattern weld.

rand

RSWORD · 20th March 2008, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Speaking about swirls: what do you think about this image? The swirls occur in wootz as well?

Alex,

Yes, you do get swirls or circular distortions in wootz as well. Your image is most certainly wootz. And nice wootz at that!

Jeff D · 20th March 2008, 03:01 AM

Hi Alex,

As you note the swirls certainly do appear in wootz. Its how they appear that determines if they are from wootz or mechanical damascus. Like Rand states, the mechanical pattern is more topographical and actually appears to have dips and valleys. I will post a piece of Indian wootz as well for contrast.

All the Best
Jeff

ALEX · 20th March 2008, 09:47 PM

Thanks to all for collaboration, and for posting wonderful examples and fantastic damascus closeups! Finally I see a "ladder" with mechanical pattern (Thanks Jens).
Even though I consider myself wootz-knowledgeable, sometimes I am not 100% sure. Like with the blade below. I thought it is wootz (low contrast/sham), but is it?

4th March 2008, 06:44 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Wootz or Mechanical Damascus? A friend of mine in Bulgaria recently acquired this sword, with a Turkish style hilt and what appears to be an Indian blade, based on the existing ricasso. He cleaned and etched the blade and was pleasantly surprised to discover a nice pattern. The question is, is this wootz or not? I personally am inclined to think that it is pattern welded, but I am interested in your opinion. Also, any comments on the origin of the sword and its dating are more than welcome. Thank you, Teodor Attached Images

4th March 2008, 08:45 PM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Gentlemen, Thank you for your quick replies. I chose the photos, on which the pattern resembled wootz the most on purpose. Now here are some additional photos, which I think will support Rick's excellent observations. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

19th March 2008, 07:05 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Like said before, most likely Indian and mechanical. Here is a picture of the ladder in mechanical pattern. Attached Images

19th March 2008, 08:57 PM	#14
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Pattern When I think of mechanical patterns a topography map comes to mind. If the pattern looks map like it is a mechanically made pattern. The pattern on this sword looks very map like as when elevation changes are noted, so to me its a pattern weld. rand

20th March 2008, 03:01 AM	#16
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Alex, As you note the swirls certainly do appear in wootz. Its how they appear that determines if they are from wootz or mechanical damascus. Like Rand states, the mechanical pattern is more topographical and actually appears to have dips and valleys. I will post a piece of Indian wootz as well for contrast. All the Best Jeff Attached Images

4th March 2008, 06:48 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Looks Like wootz to me Kirk Nirban if I am spelling it correctly? Lew

4th March 2008, 07:05 PM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Teodor, I vote mechanical damascus. With that activity (tight swirls) most likely Indian made. All the Best Jeff

4th March 2008, 07:07 PM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Teodor, I understand your inclanation to think of this as mechanical. It does show well formed, bold and prominent pattern. Jeff also has a good point about the mechanical "swirls". However, as pointed out by Lew, it displays some planar distortions, and what clearly appears to be a "ladder" formation, aka "Kirk Narduban" wootz pattern (and very attractive one So, I am with Lew. Let's see what others think... My guess on age, and very distant one, would be late 18/early 19th Cent.

4th March 2008, 07:44 PM	#5
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	mechanical damascus galvano

4th March 2008, 08:17 PM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	I also vote for a mechanical damascus and would love to see it polished up properly as the blades current state doesn't allow the full appreciation of the pattern. While you do see a vertical distortion it doesn't appear to be regularly appearing at least from the pics we can see. Also, a ladder pattern is a mechanical manipulation of wootz and this can also be done in a pattern weld. Another note is the lack of a pattern at all along the edge. This would suggest the blade has a high carbon inserted edge plate with the mechanical damascus "cheeks". An inserted edge along with the active pattern does seem to point to India as a possible origin of the blade.

4th March 2008, 10:52 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I vote for mechanical. There are plenty of "ladder-like" mechanical examples in Manfred Sachse's book. Rick is unquestionably correct: ladder is an artificial embellishment and can be applied to either variety of damascus-type blades. And, of course, the inserted edge is a dead giveaway. Nice blade, no doubt.

4th March 2008, 11:00 PM	#9
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Yes now that better pics are posted I must change my opinion mechanical it is. Lew

5th March 2008, 03:09 AM	#10
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	+1 Mechanical. +1 Indian.

20th March 2008, 09:47 PM	#17
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Thanks to all for collaboration, and for posting wonderful examples and fantastic damascus closeups! Finally I see a "ladder" with mechanical pattern (Thanks Jens). Even though I consider myself wootz-knowledgeable, sometimes I am not 100% sure. Like with the blade below. I thought it is wootz (low contrast/sham), but is it? Attached Images