Hunting sword - Hirschfanger for comments

[fernando]

A friend acquired this one and would like to know whatever possible about it.
Not much to introduce, except for what it looks like four (?) letters (rara ?) engraved above that creature. Could it be the smith's mark ?
Thank you for your Gentlemen's help.


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[corrado26]

I think it's a deer fleeing in terror after a grenade explodes or something similar

[fernando]

Noted, Udo; thanks a lot for the perspective .

[Akanthus]

I would say a Hunting sword of the second quarter of the 18th. century ,most probably German.The knuckle bow with a figure in the middle,the upper monster head and the decorated shell guard is typical for this time.The decoation lines in the upper part of the blade and the stylized stag ( antlers over the back) smells like Solingen.I wonder if there isn't the rose on the back of the blade.Also the decor of the grip,remembering of asiatic painting ,was made in Solingen.Certainly the weapon was used mainly for presantation and not for rough hunting.And yes, these kind of weapons are also loved by officers, mainly in the navy.

[fernando]

Thank you so much for your input, Akanthus ! My friend is reading these notes !

[Jim McDougall]

This is a most attractive example of 'hirschfanger' , hunting hanger and I agree likely in first half 18th c. There can be little doubt the blade is a Solingen product as from the beginning of the 18th c. the swordsmiths there established a virtual monopoly for supply of blades to the cutlers of Europe (Blackmore, "Hunting Weapons", 1971, p.41).

The styling of the hilt is of course basically as found through Germany, and followed basically throughout Europe with the guard shell extending down from hilt to provide palate for the high relief themes often employed on these.
The decorative convention of the grip material does resemble 'chinoserie', the European favor for Oriental styling in the 18th c.

The blade decoration follows the often elaborate themes including both mystical and religious elements reflecting the profoundly serious and celebrated art of 'the hunt' which was elaborately followed by the gentry and nobility. While often there were mystical devices and symbolism as well as accompanying interlaced strapwork designs (following talismanic forms of Eastern Europe), sprays of foliage and sometimes martial trophies also were used.

In this case, I am wondering if the dynamic image of the stag falling might be hubris oriented? that is, the rays might suggest, rather than explosion, the 'point of hit'.....?
in other words, suggesting a stag hit by shot while 'on the run', more notable feat of a skilled hunter.

These hangers were actually also very much 'court swords', which is why they are typically included in reference material on these. While elaborately decorated, it seems that often this did not preclude their wear on the hunt for fear of damage from hard use. I had always thought that the task of field dressing was to the accompanying 'employees' of the noble figures, and that the actual 'kill' was seldom using these hangers.

[fernando]

Noted Jim; thanks much.

[Akanthus]

Hello Jim,
It was the privileg of the ruler to kill the stag with the edged weapon when it was caught and helt by the dogs.I was always astonished how a often elderly untrained man would manage it to kill a wild stag that certainly defenses himself by kicking and using his antlers.Visiting the hunting castle od Friedrich Wilhelm I.,the father of Friedrich II ( the great ) in Wusterhausen near Berlin, i found a picture showing him while killing a stag finaly.The stag was hold by hunters to the ground ,so that the rather well-built king was endangered in no way .Often the tendons of the back legs where cut so that the animal had no chance to run away.That was made wirh a bent hunting sword we call Praxe.The deadly strike was then made with the straight hunting sword ,the Hirschfänger.Yes ,cruel procedures and not imaginable in our times.I think a weapon to be used for these things must have a sufficient stability .These with rather short blades,tiny and fine hilts or porcelain grips where certainly made for presentation of the rank of the owner than for hunting use.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Akanthus

... .Yes ,cruel procedures and not imaginable in our times...

So, save us from the details !

[Akanthus]

Originally Posted by fernando

So, save us from the details !

Yes Fernado ,would be better.But sadly most of the things discussed here in the forum weren't made to delight todays collectors...

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Akanthus

Yes Fernado ,would be better.But sadly most of the things discussed here in the forum weren't made to delight todays collectors...

Discussing antique weapons is like discussing sex; doesn't have to be explicit .

[Akanthus]

Originally Posted by fernando

Discussing antique weapons is like discussing sex; doesn't have to be explicit .

" Sin and shame do not remain hidden." Faust I ,a tragedy.J.W. Goethe

[Interested Party]

Akanthus thank you for this description. It was helpful for understanding of what I am seeing. I live in an area where many people still rely on meat obtained from hunting (it is a common vacation or rather "staycation" for many people in the fall) or meat from their own cattle. It is interesting to see how the sport of hunting changes through the years and how it relates to class. In western society I wonder if now the elite gentry doesn't hunt as much, and the "sport" of the hunt is the province of the middle class and people who live in rural areas. Though I still have a few friends who make a living as hunting guides.

A botched shot or trying to hunt using the old methods are rarely pretty. The shape of the original blade grind and the angle that a blade is sharped at effect this process to an amazing degree. All razor edges are not created equally. A flat grind or a very gradual I call it Japanese style of edge (a very gentle channel grind) make things progress much more smoothly. Such practices as described in earlier posts also help us understand human interaction of the period as well, I believe. I have to wonder if such rituals didn't help harden the participants up to enable them to do what they must to keep their wealth and privilege through borderline sociopathic tendencies. As well as some echo to blood sacrifice rites that are not as remote as we would like to think. Dark thought I know, but what it takes to keep meat on the table is puzzling and removed in industrialized societies. Not to mention that many readers are beginning the celebration of what was supposed to be the last blood sacrifice. Anyway, I digress. That is a beautiful blade. The descendants of that stag motif lived into the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries if my memory serves me. Maybe even into the present with some elite manufacturers of firearms. I possibly had some relevant pictures if I can find them. The angle of the stag's neck fascinates me. At once it seems to show fleet movement and resemble the angle of repose of a fresh kill while it still in the flaccid, almost gelatine state just after circulation fails. Is the handle of this hanger porcelain? I had thought tortoise shell at a glance.

I apologize for any discomfort given. Sometimes I have trouble not viewing the world and our subject matter wholistically. I wish everyone a happy Holliday season.

-IP

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Discussing antique weapons is like discussing sex; doesn't have to be explicit .

VERY well said Fernando!!!! and I think you have eloquently placed a quote there quite worthy to parallel of the profound philosophy of Goethe.

While I always appreciate responses and elucidation to subject matter being discussed, I do not think that detailed elaboration is necessary to describe the obvious manner in which an edged weapon is used.

To respond to the 'interesting' view stated, pertaining to the things 'discussed' here on this forum, the reference to 'delight of 'todays' collectors, is poignantly taken. The objectives here have always been, since the inception of this forum, to further our understanding of the arms and armor through historic times by discussion and examination of actual examples.
Following the theme intended in this response, I will withhold my sentiments toward 'the delights of 'todays' collectors.

I will say that my personal odyssey in the study of swords began a few years ago, actually in the early 60s as a youngster obsessed with history, in particular the weapons used in early movies of course. Since then I have studied voraciously, and indeed even collected as I could.

In my study of these weapons, I must admit that I have never found the grim reality of the actual use of them necessary in looking into their character from an artistic point of view. My focus has always been on the character of the design, elements, decoration, markings and inscriptions as obviously reflective of the history imbued in each example.

Returning to my earlier post noting that 'hunting hangers', while often highly decorated and embellished, indeed were often 'PUT TO HARD USAGE' (Blackmore, 1971, p.19).

While I appreciate the fact that this usage would of course include 'the kill', OBVIOUSLY....of course the noble hunter would carry this out! Why else would he participate in the hunt?


Blackmore notes (p.31) that:
"...few of the hunting swords worn with such apparel can ever have been intended for action, although their owners made certain that they lacked nothing in splendor for the occasion".

Further, noting Bashford Dean (his 1929 catalog) dismissed them as "..degenerate court swords small enough to be conveniently carried in the forest, to be used on very rare occasions to defend the wearer (very ineffectively) from enraged boar or stag, daintily to bleed the game but never to function in butchery".

Here I would point out that Howard Blackmore in this profoundly thorough book on hunting weapons, nor Bashford Dean in his venerable catalog of 1929 (a treasure!) , neither resort to garish or gory details in these, the most effective studies of these weapons.

[fernando]

Thank you for your input, Jim. As i see it, a rather eloquent approach !

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Is the handle of this hanger porcelain? I had thought tortoise shell at a glance....

My friend thinks it has to do with some horn material; maybe deer antler !

[Jim McDougall]

From Bruno Thomas & Ortwin Gamber, "Jahrbuch des Kunsthitorischen Museums in Wien 1937 to 1955". as cited in
"imperial Austria: Treasures of Art, Arms and Armor from the State of Styria"
Musueum of Fine Arts, Houston, 1992:

"...they convincingly explained that rather than being mere accessories, weapons are themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendancies of a period".

The nobility and gentry of Europe, much as characteristic of most civilized societies, were well aware of fashion, style and curiosities, and the 'hunt' was more of a 'field exercise' of court assembly and event.

There was of course notable competition among these figures who eagerly sought to impress others and themselves with unique, sometimes dramatic, elements reflecting these, of course on their weapons.

Blackmore (op. cit. 1971, p.36-38) notes, '...towards the end of the 17th c. TORTOISE SHELL obtained from the hawkesbill turtle native to Asian tropical waters began to be imported into Europe. The chief advantage of this malleable material was the ease with which it could be shaped, molded, impressed or inlaid with decoration".

However it goes on to describe just how rarely this material was used on weapons, but usually more common on accessories such as snuff boxes and sundry items. .......BUT, there were a few weapons in which it was used.

Porcelain seems to have produced primarily in the Chantilly and St. Cloud factories in France.

The influences of the Orient were as noted, gaining popularity in Europe with the Dutch East India Co. being a primary source. The gold and silver alloy called 'shakudo' while being a Japanese product was originally thought to be associated with the style termed 'Tonquinese' . Tonquin , Annam was a province in now Viet Nam under Chinese control and later French colonial.
The shakudo was apparently produced for the VOC at their factory in Deshima Japan, an island off the mainland.

European hilt makers seem to have actually brought in Chinese artisans for produce hilts and mounts for many of the eagerly desired 'exotic' weapons in the 18th c.

While obviously a Chinese Qing era saber, this example of much earlier blade remounted, probably diplomatically or presentation oriented, using tortoise shell material, probably first half 19th c.

[kai]

My friend thinks it has to do with some horn material; maybe deer antler !

Well, antler is bone - not any horn material...

This criss-cross pattern is not tortoise shell IMHO. To me, this looks like a paint job (there was a special technique being utilized - its name eludes me right now): The fading of the dark pattern along the facet ridges is the major hint (worn through).

Close-ups (in focus) would be good!

Regards,
Kai

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kai

... Well, antler is bone - not any horn material...

So sorry for the idiomatic expression ?

" Antler = each of the branched 'horns' on the head of an adult deer (typically a male one), which are made of bone and are grown and cast annually "

Originally Posted by kai

... The criss-cross pattern is not tortoise shell IMHO...

Visibly not !

Originally Posted by kai

... To me, this looks like a paint job (there was a special technique being utilized - its name eludes me right now): The fading of the dark pattern along the facet ridges is the major hint (worn through)...

Maybe done with some kind of acid (?) that keeps it resitant to wearing for a long period ...

Originally Posted by kai

Close-ups (in focus) would be good!..

I will ask for those; but this person only depends on his cell phone camera !

[fernando]

The best possible ...


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[Interested Party]

I can see it being a stag handle with these pictures. The shell guard of horsemen and dogs is an interesting and appropriate motif. This guard was cast? A knotwork of protection spells engraved on the blade. Thank you for the pictures.

[Jim McDougall]

The reason I added the image of the tortoise shell material of a Chinese sword in the unnoticed post I placed previously was to illustrate the effect of yellow color highlighted with brown patches. Somehow it just seemed in line with the yellowish toned material here which is staghorn or buckhorn most likely (not sure of the proper zoological term) which has indeed been painted or highlighted ...
.......
Could it be that the idea was to imitate the tortoise shell effect seen on some Chinese arms?

The elements of rococo decoration in the 18th century often included those of 'chinoiserie' (in the Chinese manner) and it seems faux material decoration was popular through the 18th c. While usually applied to steel or iron, the browning or russeting seems at hand in this example.

In Europe, 'orientalism' was in the height of fashion and popularity, and the curious talismanic charms and mysticism became well represented in the intaglios of themes on blades. The trellis type cross hatching and entwined vegetal decoration IMO has to do with that of talismanic devices and sigils with origins in Eastern Europe which came into France and Germany.

While it would seem strange that protective amulets etc. would be needed in the hunt, there was a good deal of danger from wounded and enraged animals as well as many other potential accidents. The invoking for success in the hunt was also a factor.

I agree this is likely from German states in mid 18th c.

The reason that court and hunting swords are so inherently difficult to identify and classify in these periods is that they were typically commissioned by individuals to cutlers who were jewelers and precious metals artisans. Thus more often than not they were essentially 'one off', though following popular themes and decorative devices.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...The reason I added the image of the tortoise shell material of a Chinese sword in the unnoticed post I placed previously ...

Sure it was noticed Jim; only the point was missed ... i guess .

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The reason I added the image of the tortoise shell material of a Chinese sword in the unnoticed post I placed previously was to illustrate the effect of yellow color highlighted with brown patches. Somehow it just seemed in line with the yellowish toned material here which is staghorn or buckhorn most likely (not sure of the proper zoological term) which has indeed been painted or highlighted ...

In Europe, 'orientalism' was in the height of fashion and popularity, and the curious talismanic charms and mysticism became well represented in the intaglios of themes on blades. The trellis type cross hatching and entwined vegetal decoration IMO has to do with that of talismanic devices and sigils with origins in Eastern Europe which came into France and Germany.

While it would seem strange that protective amulets etc. would be needed in the hunt, there was a good deal of danger from wounded and enraged animals as well as many other potential accidents. The invoking for success in the hunt was also a factor.

Definitely not unnoticed Jim. You said it all, so I just listened and learned. I have been curious if this pattern isn't burned into the antler, but maybe it is closer to a dying process akin to modern jigged bone that changes the color of bone to match stag.

As far as the knotwork goes it can be traced back at least to iron or bronze age Celtic culture and was in early Germanic cultures as well (I can cite cite illuminations in old and middle English texts for this). I think the area between the two cultures is now considered fuzzier than historians believed 50 years ago.

In European doctrine are you not supposed to pray before beginning all endeavors (I forget the chapter and verse). So, it is logical that protection as well as guidance is always needed.

Happy new year!

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you guys, I guess I was looking for a response to the Chinese exemplar and suggestion, which I should have worded more carefully. To me the similarity to the toned tortoise shell effect seemed compellingly similar.
I would note here that the creation of faux decoration that often reached for 'oriental' styling was profoundly practiced in the 18th century .

Case in point was the 'galuchat' style of horse hide with pressed seeds and dyed to replicate ray skin in grips . Also there was a curious affinity for dying or tinting ivory green, perhaps intended to associate with various types of jade?

Very well noted on the Celtic style braiding and knotwork which certainly must be associated with these kinds of decorative motif. I agree that often the more information that becomes available, the expansion of possibilities increase, making specific definition more difficult in many cases.
As Eastern Europe was of course heavily influenced by Germanic populations such as notably in Transylvania and other principalities, these kinds of material culture characteristics diffused accordingly.

Interesting note on the European doctrines pertaining to the religious aspects of talismanic themes. I have always been fascinated by the 'magical' and occult devices, themes and amuletic properties of blade decoration, and how closely religious invocations often 'share the same space'.

My wishes as well for a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! and many new discoveries!