What is this?

Tim Simmons · 12th July 2007, 07:24 PM

Some damned fool might have paid a lot of hongo for this. A fool and thier money are soon parted.

Rick · 12th July 2007, 07:33 PM

Something whispers 'Philippine' in my ear ....

I wonder what the inlays were ?

carlos · 12th July 2007, 07:35 PM

MAYBE A INDONESIAN HUNTING SWORD?

Tim Simmons · 12th July 2007, 07:39 PM

Must have been some bloody fool Englishman

.

Tim Simmons · 12th July 2007, 09:30 PM

Whoever bought it could easily stick come mother of pearl in the grip.

Henk · 13th July 2007, 03:50 PM

If this object has a pamor blade then it is an Indonesian weapon. I think it is a pedang.

The grip had inlay. Could be very well mother of pearl.

RhysMichael · 13th July 2007, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

If this object has a pamor blade then it is an Indonesian weapon. I think it is a pedang.

The grip had inlay. Could be very well mother of pearl.

I also thought of a pedang when I saw it, but I had not seen one with this hilt. The blade shape reminds me of the type seen on some pedang suduk

VANDOO · 13th July 2007, 04:34 PM

I AGREE IT IS PROBABLY A PEDANG THE WORKMANSHIP AND THE WAY THE GAURD IS ATTACHED REMINDS ME OF PRANG NABURS. PERHAPS IT IS A PEDANG WITH SOME EUROPEAN INFLUNCE IN THE DESIGN OF THE GUARD.
UNFORTUNATELY THESE TWO NABURS PICTURED ARE NOT MINE AND I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE I GOT THE PICTURES FOR REFRENCE SO I HOPE NO ONE IS OFFENDED BY THEIR USE HERE.

Tim Simmons · 13th July 2007, 06:20 PM

Can anyone say whether silver pieces might have been used as inlay. Most often silver pieces are pinned in place. Here it looks as if the inlay was held in place by an adhesive which might suggest more likely mother of pearl?

Rick · 13th July 2007, 06:41 PM

It seems that all the inlay pieces are gone; this suggests to me that they had some monetary value; silver possibly but it might have been suassa or low carat gold .

Tim Simmons · 13th July 2007, 07:21 PM

Good point Rick. Working with it all the time I sometimes loose track that to some people it is precious. It will be far easier to replace than mother of pearl.

Battara · 13th July 2007, 10:37 PM

I am in the Indonesian camp. I am thinking perhaps ivory inlays. These can fall out too.

Henk · 13th July 2007, 10:39 PM

If the inlay was mother of pearl it is very good possible that the adhesive contains some remains of mother of pearl. I don't think the inlay was a metal like silver or gold or something. Metal inlay mostly was, as said, pinned. I personally have the idea that the inlay was made of an organic material like mother of pearl, bone or ivory. But why is all the inlay removed? Then the theory of silver or gold makes sense.

In the book by Van Zonneveld on page 94 is a large picture of a pedang lurus that has some similarities with the guard of this one.

Tim Simmons · 13th July 2007, 10:55 PM

What do you think would look best? Silver is easy but to me not right, mother of pearl would be my choice. It may well have been ivory but that is problematic. I also think that the white of ivory would be a rather dull contrast to the dark wood of the handle. I wonder what the original artist felt?

RhysMichael · 14th July 2007, 01:07 AM

You can buy old ivory piano keys at times on ebay. I have gotten them for knife scales before. That may be an option. Only problem is when you are working ivory it smells like when the dentist is drilling your teeth, at least to me. I've never worked MOP but I have been told you have to keep it from heating up too much so the I was told to use new and very sharp tools. I am sure someone here knows more about this than I do

Rick · 14th July 2007, 04:18 AM

Low K Gold, and the inserts should be a pillowed out from the wood surface a bit.

Tim Simmons · 14th July 2007, 08:53 AM

The lowest gold I could get would be the British standard 9ct gold, even milled very thin it will be a little more than I would like to pay. I like the idea of pillowed or domed pieces but looking at the small shapes at the extremities of the grip I am not sure that is the most practical way to go. I will try a few silver bits first as this is the most simple and ready to hand. Does anybody have a weapon with silver inlay held by adhesive ?

Tim Simmons · 18th July 2007, 02:28 PM

Well I have it now and Rick was correct Philippine. It has that feel of much Philippine minorities work a sort of rough relegance. It was covered in old thick grease and when removed the handle has two pieces of brass sheet inlay, so that could be replaced. The blade has been locally forged displaying some folding to the steel. On the whole I am very pleased with it and think it was a good buy but I would not have wanted to pay a penny more. Lucky that I have recently gained more interest in this area and this will indeed add to the collection. Not the most common stuff in the UK. The blade is just over 45cm long with a central midrib and has been well used.

Ian · 18th July 2007, 05:06 PM

The mid-rib on the blade is consistent with a Spanish colonial origin. Probably late 19th C., from the revolutionary period in the Philippines. The full length tang suggests it was made in Luzon, probably Manila.

Ian.

Tim Simmons · 18th July 2007, 05:49 PM

Thanks Ian. A revolution period may help explain a some what hurried look about the weapon. The very thickest part of the forte is 7mm. The handle may be horn. Here is a pic of the back. The more I handle it, think I did rather well

.

I have been googling the revolution, very interesting. Happy Happy

ward · 18th July 2007, 06:39 PM

be careful if working with mother of pearl the dust is extreamly hazardous. Must be worked with under a water barrier

Bill · 18th July 2007, 08:10 PM

Looks like a couple of inlay are still there. Brass? You should be able to buy a small brass sheet the same thickness & cut new ones.

Rick · 18th July 2007, 09:05 PM

Can't wait to see it when you've worked your magic on it Tim .

Tim Simmons · 18th July 2007, 09:41 PM

As two bits of brass foil inlay are left, I will just leave it for now but I will probably add more in the not too distant future. We have found one thing, the inlay does not have to be precious metals or ivory and so on.

Tim Simmons · 19th July 2007, 06:34 PM

hence the small pictures.

Rick · 19th July 2007, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

As two bits of brass foil inlay are left, I will just leave it for now but I will probably add more in the not too distant future. We have found one thing, the inlay does not have to be precious metals or ivory and so on.

Twenty four little hours ...

Beauty Tim !

Flavio · 19th July 2007, 07:34 PM

Well done, Tim! Very nice

Henk · 20th July 2007, 01:34 PM

WOOW!!!

Beautiful work Tim!!!

Still if i look at the blade, Pedang comes up. Is it a pamor blade, Tim? Philipine origin is possible, but still.........

Tim Simmons · 20th July 2007, 05:54 PM

Thanks Henk, easy when you have rolling mills. It looks better now that the glue has set. I have been able to dent and mark the inlay a little, I will show latter when I have time. As to the blade, I cannot tell the difference between fancy folded steel or folded up steel from what ever came to hand or pamor. Judging by the lack of fine finishing, polishing and so on. That and the rather crude screw in the bow I just assumed it was "Indios" rural production?

Bill · 20th July 2007, 06:10 PM

Nice. I'm impressed, the type of work that should be done on these old blades. Restoration & not artistic licence to embellish.

12th July 2007, 07:24 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	What is this? Some damned fool might have paid a lot of hongo for this. A fool and thier money are soon parted.

12th July 2007, 07:35 PM	#3
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	indonesian? MAYBE A INDONESIAN HUNTING SWORD? Last edited by carlos; 12th July 2007 at 07:35 PM. Reason: MY BAD ENGLISH

13th July 2007, 04:34 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE IT IS PROBABLY A PEDANG THE WORKMANSHIP AND THE WAY THE GAURD IS ATTACHED REMINDS ME OF PRANG NABURS. PERHAPS IT IS A PEDANG WITH SOME EUROPEAN INFLUNCE IN THE DESIGN OF THE GUARD. UNFORTUNATELY THESE TWO NABURS PICTURED ARE NOT MINE AND I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE I GOT THE PICTURES FOR REFRENCE SO I HOPE NO ONE IS OFFENDED BY THEIR USE HERE. Attached Images

14th July 2007, 04:18 AM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Match the Patina Low K Gold, and the inserts should be a pillowed out from the wood surface a bit.

18th July 2007, 05:06 PM	#19
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Nice find The mid-rib on the blade is consistent with a Spanish colonial origin. Probably late 19th C., from the revolutionary period in the Philippines. The full length tang suggests it was made in Luzon, probably Manila. Ian.

12th July 2007, 07:33 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Something whispers 'Philippine' in my ear .... I wonder what the inlays were ?

12th July 2007, 07:39 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Must have been some bloody fool Englishman .

12th July 2007, 09:30 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Whoever bought it could easily stick come mother of pearl in the grip.

13th July 2007, 03:50 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	If this object has a pamor blade then it is an Indonesian weapon. I think it is a pedang. The grip had inlay. Could be very well mother of pearl.

13th July 2007, 06:20 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Can anyone say whether silver pieces might have been used as inlay. Most often silver pieces are pinned in place. Here it looks as if the inlay was held in place by an adhesive which might suggest more likely mother of pearl?

13th July 2007, 06:41 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	It seems that all the inlay pieces are gone; this suggests to me that they had some monetary value; silver possibly but it might have been suassa or low carat gold .

13th July 2007, 07:21 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Good point Rick. Working with it all the time I sometimes loose track that to some people it is precious. It will be far easier to replace than mother of pearl.

13th July 2007, 10:37 PM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I am in the Indonesian camp. I am thinking perhaps ivory inlays. These can fall out too.

13th July 2007, 10:39 PM	#13
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	If the inlay was mother of pearl it is very good possible that the adhesive contains some remains of mother of pearl. I don't think the inlay was a metal like silver or gold or something. Metal inlay mostly was, as said, pinned. I personally have the idea that the inlay was made of an organic material like mother of pearl, bone or ivory. But why is all the inlay removed? Then the theory of silver or gold makes sense. In the book by Van Zonneveld on page 94 is a large picture of a pedang lurus that has some similarities with the guard of this one.

13th July 2007, 10:55 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	What do you think would look best? Silver is easy but to me not right, mother of pearl would be my choice. It may well have been ivory but that is problematic. I also think that the white of ivory would be a rather dull contrast to the dark wood of the handle. I wonder what the original artist felt?

14th July 2007, 01:07 AM	#15
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	You can buy old ivory piano keys at times on ebay. I have gotten them for knife scales before. That may be an option. Only problem is when you are working ivory it smells like when the dentist is drilling your teeth, at least to me. I've never worked MOP but I have been told you have to keep it from heating up too much so the I was told to use new and very sharp tools. I am sure someone here knows more about this than I do

14th July 2007, 08:53 AM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The lowest gold I could get would be the British standard 9ct gold, even milled very thin it will be a little more than I would like to pay. I like the idea of pillowed or domed pieces but looking at the small shapes at the extremities of the grip I am not sure that is the most practical way to go. I will try a few silver bits first as this is the most simple and ready to hand. Does anybody have a weapon with silver inlay held by adhesive ?

18th July 2007, 02:28 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Well I have it now and Rick was correct Philippine. It has that feel of much Philippine minorities work a sort of rough relegance. It was covered in old thick grease and when removed the handle has two pieces of brass sheet inlay, so that could be replaced. The blade has been locally forged displaying some folding to the steel. On the whole I am very pleased with it and think it was a good buy but I would not have wanted to pay a penny more. Lucky that I have recently gained more interest in this area and this will indeed add to the collection. Not the most common stuff in the UK. The blade is just over 45cm long with a central midrib and has been well used.

18th July 2007, 05:49 PM	#20
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks Ian. A revolution period may help explain a some what hurried look about the weapon. The very thickest part of the forte is 7mm. The handle may be horn. Here is a pic of the back. The more I handle it, think I did rather well . I have been googling the revolution, very interesting. Happy Happy

18th July 2007, 06:39 PM	#21
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	be careful if working with mother of pearl the dust is extreamly hazardous. Must be worked with under a water barrier

18th July 2007, 08:10 PM	#22
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Looks like a couple of inlay are still there. Brass? You should be able to buy a small brass sheet the same thickness & cut new ones.

18th July 2007, 09:05 PM	#23
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Can't wait to see it when you've worked your magic on it Tim .

18th July 2007, 09:41 PM	#24
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	As two bits of brass foil inlay are left, I will just leave it for now but I will probably add more in the not too distant future. We have found one thing, the inlay does not have to be precious metals or ivory and so on.

19th July 2007, 06:34 PM	#25
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Not quite finished hence the small pictures. Attached Images

19th July 2007, 07:34 PM	#27
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Well done, Tim! Very nice

20th July 2007, 01:34 PM	#28
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	WOOW!!! Beautiful work Tim!!! Still if i look at the blade, Pedang comes up. Is it a pamor blade, Tim? Philipine origin is possible, but still.........

20th July 2007, 05:54 PM	#29
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks Henk, easy when you have rolling mills. It looks better now that the glue has set. I have been able to dent and mark the inlay a little, I will show latter when I have time. As to the blade, I cannot tell the difference between fancy folded steel or folded up steel from what ever came to hand or pamor. Judging by the lack of fine finishing, polishing and so on. That and the rather crude screw in the bow I just assumed it was "Indios" rural production?

20th July 2007, 06:10 PM	#30
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Nice. I'm impressed, the type of work that should be done on these old blades. Restoration & not artistic licence to embellish.