BULL FIGHTING WEAPONS

VANDOO · 9th August 2016, 09:44 PM

I SAW A GOOD OLD EXAMPLE OF A SPECIALIZED DAGGER ON EBAY RECENTLY. IT IS USED TO DISPATCH THE BULL AFTER IT IS DOWN, ADMINISTERING THE "THE COUP DE GRAS". IT IS A SPECIALIZED FORM FOR THE BULL RING BUT OTHER FORMS OF DAGGER MAY HAVE BEEN USED. NO DOUBT MANY FIND BULL FIGHTING BARBARIC AND CRUEL. BUT THERE IS A LOT MORE TO IT THAN JUST KILLING OR AT TIMES BEING KILLED SO PERHAPS SOME MAY LIKE TO LEARN OF THE WEAPONS USED.
#1. & #2. MADE IN TOLEDO, 13 INCHES OLDER BULLFIGHTING DAGGER OR HUNTING KNIFE
#3. A NEWER BULL FIGHTING DAGGER
#4. THE FULL RANGE OF WEAPONS WITH BLADES INVOLVED IN BULL FIGHTING. INCLUDING A DAGGER. THE SWORD HAS A SPECIALLY CURVED BLADE DESIGNED TO MISS THE BONES WHEN USED PERFECTLY AND MAKE A CLEAN THRUST TO THE HEART.
#5. SELECTION OF BULLFIGHTING DAGGERS
#6. BULLFIGHTING DAGGER
#7. BULLFIGHTING DAGGER OR HUNTING KNIFE
#8. BULLFIGHTER SWORD GRIP DETAIL
#9. BULLFIGHTER SWORD BLADE CURVE DETAIL
#10. HOW BULLFIGHTER GRIPS AND AIMS FOR THE THRUST.

NOTE THE EXPRESSION AT THE MOMENT WHEN EITHER YOU GET IT RIGHT OR PERHAPS YOU ARE BADLY INJURED OR KILLED.
THANKS FOR THE COMMENTS AS I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BULLFIGHT AND KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT IT BUT DO FIND THE SPECIALIZED WEAPONS INTERESTING.

drac2k · 10th August 2016, 03:55 AM

I would like to elaborate on the sword numbered 3.I had one that I was selling and it went off without any bids and I decided not to relist it because I rather liked it.A gentleman asked me if I would sell it,however, once it goes into my "black hole," of collecting, it usually never comes out.
After I informed the man that I was keeping it, he was most kind and told me that he was from a Mexican family of bullfighters and wrote to me the following:
".....the most valuable are from Valencia and Toledo Spain....there is some that are made in Mexico.....many for the tourist souvenir type,the markings are different....due to the lack or have a limited temper on the metal...not all are to be used in the bullfight for obvious reasons.
There is a history of why this sword has a cross member....or cruzeta.
In 1934 a famous matador named Juan Belmonte was ready to dispatch a bull ...in the process the animal moved the head violently and the matador lost his grip on the sword...the sword ended in the public sitting on the grades...killing a man.
There was another publicized incident,the matadors were aware of the dangers of the long swords and another fatality...this time the matador Ignacio Sanches Mejias had a leather strapped to his wrist holding the sword like a polo mallet, he lost control of the sword when stabbing the bull,he was gored and killed....
The authorities in Madrid Spain, opened a contest to find a solution to these issues.....out of 46 samples they selected 8....the new designs were tested in the slaughter houses and one was approved...the model that is used up to now is similar to the one you have...."
That is the sword #3;I thought that this was an interesting perspective that some might find useful.

carlos · 10th August 2016, 04:36 PM

I think number 1 and 2 is a hunting knife, in Spain his name is higüela, the picture 2 is a puntilla de desacabello, in this case his maker is Bermejo, a maker of edged weapons in Toledo.
Thanks for sharing
carlos

Jim McDougall · 11th August 2016, 05:34 AM

It is hard to guage how to respond in a thread on this topic, as it is almost inevitable that activists will have to express their views on this admittedly grim sport. In perspective however, it is a profound tradition of Spain and Latin America which has its roots in ancient history, and actually is quite similar to big game hunting it seems to me.
While obviously fatal to the bull, it is also dangerous and often fatal to the matadors and others in the ring, well over 500 human fatalities on record. The most recent was just last month.

I prefer, just as in studying weapons, to focus on the historical aspects of them, not their inherent purpose, though obviously it cannot be entirely ignored.

Apparantly the actual event of bullfights was introduced or at least popularized by Francisco Romero in Ronda, Spain c. 1726.
Without elaborating on more details and focus on the sword, I am wondering of the 'estoque' (piercing sword) used might have been of the type attached here (these produced c. 1690-1750s).

This is a cuphilt in this case but more of the rugged form typically termed 'caribbean' but perhaps the smaller grip etc might have been used in these 'fights'. The seemingly small grip and character of these always reminded me of bullfight swords.
The red cape covering the muleta stick and then the sword is of course theatrical, the bull cannot discern color and for that matter probably not the covered sword either.

Interesting on these daggers, which do seem very much like hunting knives.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th August 2016, 08:10 AM

In Oman they do it like this... See http://timesofoman.com/article/8957/...ng-Omani-Style

Jim McDougall · 11th August 2016, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

In Oman they do it like this... See http://timesofoman.com/article/8957/...ng-Omani-Style

Why does this seem familiar!!!!????

VANDOO · 11th August 2016, 04:18 PM

I HAVE WATCHED BULLS AND BUFFALO FIGHT MANY TIMES. AT CERTAIN TIMES OF THE YEAR YOU CAN SEE QUITE A FEW FIGHTS AT THE AREAS WHERE WE STILL HAVE HERDS OF BUFFALO IN OKLAHOMA AND OTHER PLACES. DEER CAN PUT UP QUITE A FIGHT AS WELL.

machinist · 11th August 2016, 04:51 PM

The Portuguese in California do it like this with velcro Bandilleras https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRzPPThS_M0

fernando · 11th August 2016, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

...NO DOUBT MANY FIND BULL FIGHTING BARBARIC AND CRUEL. BUT THERE IS A LOT MORE TO IT THAN JUST KILLING OR AT TIMES BEING KILLED SO PERHAPS SOME MAY LIKE TO LEARN OF THE WEAPONS USED.
...

Actually there is a lot more to it, and learning what they do to the bull in the night before they toss him into the arena, so that he is softned enough for facing its executioner, would make you and others think twice ... to only mention this part of the picture.

-

David · 11th August 2016, 07:40 PM

You can call me an "activist" if you like, but this is looking less and less like an appropriate discussion for an Ethnographic Weapons forum.

fernando · 11th August 2016, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It is hard to guage how to respond in a thread on this topic, as it is almost inevitable that activists will have to express their views on this admittedly grim sport...

If i may, Jim, one doesn't have to be an activist to recognize this era is past; one just has to introspect, i guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In perspective however, it is a profound tradition of Spain and Latin America...

You forgot Portugal, for one; but even such countries where this 'sport' is traditional, are droping it, province by province, city by city.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... and actually is quite similar to big game hunting it seems to me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... While obviously fatal to the bull, it is also dangerous and often fatal to the matadors and others in the ring, well over 500 human fatalities on record. The most recent was just last month.

Bleeching the situation by citing that the bulfighter also dyes, is a joke; the ratio must be around one per one hundred thousand.

Ian · 11th August 2016, 08:38 PM

This thread has drawn significant negative comments from two of the Moderators (posted above) and I have received several PMs from members who are "offended" or "outraged."

The topic of bullfighting is obviously controversial, to say the least, and one which inflicts considerable suffering to the bull (and sometimes his protagonists). Many areas of the world where bullfighting has been popular are now curtailing the practice because of its brutality.

This thread is closed now, pending further discussion by the Moderators.

Robert · 13th August 2016, 03:50 AM

This thread is now open once more. Please everyone, as Jim said in the other thread;"let us keep to the subject of the weapons alone, and to leave the rest of the obvious controversy on the bullfighting issues out of the discussion."

Best,
Robert

drac2k · 13th August 2016, 04:51 PM

VANDOO, could you elaborate on item # 4, which to me looks like a riding crop? It does not appear to me to be an effective weapon.First, the handle appears to be very small, with no guard and made of metal;I imagine that it would be very difficult to hold, especially if sweat and blood were added into the mix.Another problem for me is that the blade appears to be very flimsy; is it cruciform; can you show us a picture of the naked blade.Since it looks like a riding crop, could it be an emergency weapon for the Picadors?

VANDOO · 13th August 2016, 06:14 PM

SORRY I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS? IT WAS JUST INCLUDED IN THE PICTURE I FOUND OF MOST OF THE BLADED THINGS USED IN THE SPORT. THE FIRST KNIFE PICTURED IS WHAT BROUGHT THIS POST ABOUT AS IT REMINDED ME OF A DAGGER I HAD SEEN PICTURES OF IT MAY JUST BE A HUNTING KNIFE AND HUNTING KNIVES MAY HAVE BEEN USED AND IT IS LIKELY REGULAR SWORDS WERE USED BEFORE SPECIALIZED WEAPONS WERE MADE TO DO A MORE EFFICIENT AND SAFER JOB.
SAFER FOR THE MATADOR THAT IS. WHAT IS SAID IS TRUE THE PERCENTAGE OF WINS GOES TO THE MATADOR AND THE ODDS ARE STACKED IN HIS FAVOR BUT SOMETIMES THE BULL FIGURES IT OUT AND WINS. IF THE BULLS HAD ALWAYS WON THERE WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN BULL FIGHTING. IF A MAN GOES IN WITHOUT ANY TRICKS, TOOLS OR WAY OUT THE BULL WILL INVARIABLY WIN. SUCH BULLS MAY HAVE BEEN USED IN THE COLISEUMS IN ROME FOR THE SPECTACLE OF PEOPLE BEING DONE IN BY ANIMALS THAT WAS POPULAR IN THOSE TIMES, I DON'T KNOW BUT HERCULES WAS SAID TO HAVE FOUGHT A KILLER BULL SO ITS POSSIBLE.
I HAVE HANDLED THE MODERN BULLFIGHTING SWORDS BUT HAVE NEVER SEEN THE DAGGER OR OTHER THINGS. THERE IS A LONG HISTORY ASSOCIATED WITH THIS AND MANY TRADITIONS, CEREMONIES AND BELIEFS. MANS ASSOCIATION WITH CATTLE HAS BEEN A LONG ONE AND MOSTLY BENEFITS MAN AND ALWAYS HAS WITH ALL ANIMALS WE HAVE DOMESTICATED. PERHAPS SOMEONE WHO HAS THE KNOWLEDGE AND COLLECTS IN THIS FIELD MAY ADD TO THIS TOPIC BUT I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. JUST BE CAREFUL IF YOU DO AS IN MY CASE FOOLS RUSH IN WHERE WISE MEN FEAR TO TREAD.

BUT AT LEAST SOME MAY NOW KNOW WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING AT IF THEY SEE ONE OF THESE ITEMS .

UNFORTUNATELY I DON'T HAVE INFORMATION OR THE ARTICLE THAT PICTURE IS FROM. NO DOUBT AN EXPLANATION OF THE ITEMS IS AVAILABLE AS THE ITEMS ARE NUMBERED. IT DOES LOOK MORE LIKE A RIDING CROP THAN A WEAPON.

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2016, 06:50 PM

Drac2, thank you for noting that, and very interesting question on exactly what that is, it does look like a riding crop.

In looking further into these weapons, I must say the material which references or attends to them in the literature is sparse. As I mentioned, over the years I did find the swords interesting in a sense of exotica because of that. In various cases of course in the scope of Spanish and Portuguese swords, some of these would be mentioned.

What I had hoped to discover was the older examples of actual swords used in these events, and what sort of sword or style might have been used in the early times. We know that before c.1726, the events were quite different, and select status individuals were involved with much of the contact from horseback and using a kind of lance (rejones).

In 1726, when the concept of a lone swordsman on foot was introduced, I believe by Francisco Romero in Ronda, Spain, he apparently used a sword concealed by the red cape (muleta). The sword is described as an estoque, which is of course a type of European sword for thrusting.

In some discussions I found on line with notes from Javier Ramos in 2006, who if I recall is in Spain, he suggests that a rapier would have broken in such thrusting in these cases, and that the cup guard would have caused encumbrance of the swordsman's hand. He suggests that the length of the rapier blades would have lent to such breaking and suggested that the advent of the small sword may have been more in keeping with such thrusts.
The hilt was apparently flat, much as we see in the swords which appear to have been traditionally in place for some time, and was held with the pommel in the hand and two fingers over the flat ricasso.

While I had wondered if the versions of munitions or arming grade cup hilts might have been used in the earliest use of 'estoque de verdad' (real sword) as following the estoque simulado in the style brought in by Romero. With this it seems that was not the case.

With regard to the daggers, I believe termed 'puntilla', what I notice is the curious flared or leaf like blade. It seems to me that is like the points of some of the large zweihander or other large swords used in Europe in hunting. Though I had brought in earlier the idea of these swords and daggers having possible association with hunting weapons, in checking "Hunting Weapons" (Blackmore) there were no references to bullfight weapons

The instance I also mentioned earlier regarding the bullfight sword having been examined in a study for military swords was with Major John Gaspard LeMarchant who in 1788 was working on developing more effective swords for British cavalry.

His review of prototypes included, as he noted, those of "..Turks, Mamalukes, Moors and Hungarians", with the result being the M1796 light cavalry sabre. However with swords for heavy cavalry, the generals balked at the idea of sabres, and insisted on thrusting swords. It was in this context that the Spanish bullfight sword came into the study (from 'LeMarchant: Scientific Soldier", Thoumaine, but cannot recall exact details). Clearly this was not a combat weapon, but interesting to see in this situation.

Also interesting in other influences from the 'corrido'/ bullfight, in cases in use of the well known navaja knife, tbere are occasions known where a special cloak known as 'mantas' was employed. While not directly proven, the similarity is compelling.

I still have not found genuine examples of early bullfight swords or weapons of any true vintage, and have hoped to find early examples to compare to the well known modern forms.

13th August 2016, 06:14 PM	#15
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	SORRY I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS? IT WAS JUST INCLUDED IN THE PICTURE I FOUND OF MOST OF THE BLADED THINGS USED IN THE SPORT. THE FIRST KNIFE PICTURED IS WHAT BROUGHT THIS POST ABOUT AS IT REMINDED ME OF A DAGGER I HAD SEEN PICTURES OF IT MAY JUST BE A HUNTING KNIFE AND HUNTING KNIVES MAY HAVE BEEN USED AND IT IS LIKELY REGULAR SWORDS WERE USED BEFORE SPECIALIZED WEAPONS WERE MADE TO DO A MORE EFFICIENT AND SAFER JOB. SAFER FOR THE MATADOR THAT IS. WHAT IS SAID IS TRUE THE PERCENTAGE OF WINS GOES TO THE MATADOR AND THE ODDS ARE STACKED IN HIS FAVOR BUT SOMETIMES THE BULL FIGURES IT OUT AND WINS. IF THE BULLS HAD ALWAYS WON THERE WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN BULL FIGHTING. IF A MAN GOES IN WITHOUT ANY TRICKS, TOOLS OR WAY OUT THE BULL WILL INVARIABLY WIN. SUCH BULLS MAY HAVE BEEN USED IN THE COLISEUMS IN ROME FOR THE SPECTACLE OF PEOPLE BEING DONE IN BY ANIMALS THAT WAS POPULAR IN THOSE TIMES, I DON'T KNOW BUT HERCULES WAS SAID TO HAVE FOUGHT A KILLER BULL SO ITS POSSIBLE. I HAVE HANDLED THE MODERN BULLFIGHTING SWORDS BUT HAVE NEVER SEEN THE DAGGER OR OTHER THINGS. THERE IS A LONG HISTORY ASSOCIATED WITH THIS AND MANY TRADITIONS, CEREMONIES AND BELIEFS. MANS ASSOCIATION WITH CATTLE HAS BEEN A LONG ONE AND MOSTLY BENEFITS MAN AND ALWAYS HAS WITH ALL ANIMALS WE HAVE DOMESTICATED. PERHAPS SOMEONE WHO HAS THE KNOWLEDGE AND COLLECTS IN THIS FIELD MAY ADD TO THIS TOPIC BUT I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. JUST BE CAREFUL IF YOU DO AS IN MY CASE FOOLS RUSH IN WHERE WISE MEN FEAR TO TREAD. BUT AT LEAST SOME MAY NOW KNOW WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING AT IF THEY SEE ONE OF THESE ITEMS . UNFORTUNATELY I DON'T HAVE INFORMATION OR THE ARTICLE THAT PICTURE IS FROM. NO DOUBT AN EXPLANATION OF THE ITEMS IS AVAILABLE AS THE ITEMS ARE NUMBERED. IT DOES LOOK MORE LIKE A RIDING CROP THAN A WEAPON. Last edited by VANDOO; 14th August 2016 at 06:33 AM.

9th August 2016, 09:44 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	BULL FIGHTING WEAPONS I SAW A GOOD OLD EXAMPLE OF A SPECIALIZED DAGGER ON EBAY RECENTLY. IT IS USED TO DISPATCH THE BULL AFTER IT IS DOWN, ADMINISTERING THE "THE COUP DE GRAS". IT IS A SPECIALIZED FORM FOR THE BULL RING BUT OTHER FORMS OF DAGGER MAY HAVE BEEN USED. NO DOUBT MANY FIND BULL FIGHTING BARBARIC AND CRUEL. BUT THERE IS A LOT MORE TO IT THAN JUST KILLING OR AT TIMES BEING KILLED SO PERHAPS SOME MAY LIKE TO LEARN OF THE WEAPONS USED. #1. & #2. MADE IN TOLEDO, 13 INCHES OLDER BULLFIGHTING DAGGER OR HUNTING KNIFE #3. A NEWER BULL FIGHTING DAGGER #4. THE FULL RANGE OF WEAPONS WITH BLADES INVOLVED IN BULL FIGHTING. INCLUDING A DAGGER. THE SWORD HAS A SPECIALLY CURVED BLADE DESIGNED TO MISS THE BONES WHEN USED PERFECTLY AND MAKE A CLEAN THRUST TO THE HEART. #5. SELECTION OF BULLFIGHTING DAGGERS #6. BULLFIGHTING DAGGER #7. BULLFIGHTING DAGGER OR HUNTING KNIFE #8. BULLFIGHTER SWORD GRIP DETAIL #9. BULLFIGHTER SWORD BLADE CURVE DETAIL #10. HOW BULLFIGHTER GRIPS AND AIMS FOR THE THRUST. NOTE THE EXPRESSION AT THE MOMENT WHEN EITHER YOU GET IT RIGHT OR PERHAPS YOU ARE BADLY INJURED OR KILLED. THANKS FOR THE COMMENTS AS I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BULLFIGHT AND KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT IT BUT DO FIND THE SPECIALIZED WEAPONS INTERESTING. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 10th August 2016 at 06:44 PM.

10th August 2016, 03:55 AM	#2
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	I would like to elaborate on the sword numbered 3.I had one that I was selling and it went off without any bids and I decided not to relist it because I rather liked it.A gentleman asked me if I would sell it,however, once it goes into my "black hole," of collecting, it usually never comes out. After I informed the man that I was keeping it, he was most kind and told me that he was from a Mexican family of bullfighters and wrote to me the following: ".....the most valuable are from Valencia and Toledo Spain....there is some that are made in Mexico.....many for the tourist souvenir type,the markings are different....due to the lack or have a limited temper on the metal...not all are to be used in the bullfight for obvious reasons. There is a history of why this sword has a cross member....or cruzeta. In 1934 a famous matador named Juan Belmonte was ready to dispatch a bull ...in the process the animal moved the head violently and the matador lost his grip on the sword...the sword ended in the public sitting on the grades...killing a man. There was another publicized incident,the matadors were aware of the dangers of the long swords and another fatality...this time the matador Ignacio Sanches Mejias had a leather strapped to his wrist holding the sword like a polo mallet, he lost control of the sword when stabbing the bull,he was gored and killed.... The authorities in Madrid Spain, opened a contest to find a solution to these issues.....out of 46 samples they selected 8....the new designs were tested in the slaughter houses and one was approved...the model that is used up to now is similar to the one you have...." That is the sword #3;I thought that this was an interesting perspective that some might find useful.

10th August 2016, 04:36 PM	#3
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	I think number 1 and 2 is a hunting knife, in Spain his name is higüela, the picture 2 is a puntilla de desacabello, in this case his maker is Bermejo, a maker of edged weapons in Toledo. Thanks for sharing carlos

11th August 2016, 05:34 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	It is hard to guage how to respond in a thread on this topic, as it is almost inevitable that activists will have to express their views on this admittedly grim sport. In perspective however, it is a profound tradition of Spain and Latin America which has its roots in ancient history, and actually is quite similar to big game hunting it seems to me. While obviously fatal to the bull, it is also dangerous and often fatal to the matadors and others in the ring, well over 500 human fatalities on record. The most recent was just last month. I prefer, just as in studying weapons, to focus on the historical aspects of them, not their inherent purpose, though obviously it cannot be entirely ignored. Apparantly the actual event of bullfights was introduced or at least popularized by Francisco Romero in Ronda, Spain c. 1726. Without elaborating on more details and focus on the sword, I am wondering of the 'estoque' (piercing sword) used might have been of the type attached here (these produced c. 1690-1750s). This is a cuphilt in this case but more of the rugged form typically termed 'caribbean' but perhaps the smaller grip etc might have been used in these 'fights'. The seemingly small grip and character of these always reminded me of bullfight swords. The red cape covering the muleta stick and then the sword is of course theatrical, the bull cannot discern color and for that matter probably not the covered sword either. Interesting on these daggers, which do seem very much like hunting knives. Attached Images

11th August 2016, 08:10 AM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	In Oman they do it like this... See http://timesofoman.com/article/8957/...ng-Omani-Style Attached Images

11th August 2016, 04:18 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE WATCHED BULLS AND BUFFALO FIGHT MANY TIMES. AT CERTAIN TIMES OF THE YEAR YOU CAN SEE QUITE A FEW FIGHTS AT THE AREAS WHERE WE STILL HAVE HERDS OF BUFFALO IN OKLAHOMA AND OTHER PLACES. DEER CAN PUT UP QUITE A FIGHT AS WELL.

11th August 2016, 04:51 PM	#8
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	The Portuguese in California do it like this with velcro Bandilleras https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRzPPThS_M0

11th August 2016, 07:40 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	You can call me an "activist" if you like, but this is looking less and less like an appropriate discussion for an Ethnographic Weapons forum.

11th August 2016, 08:38 PM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	This thread has drawn significant negative comments from two of the Moderators (posted above) and I have received several PMs from members who are "offended" or "outraged." The topic of bullfighting is obviously controversial, to say the least, and one which inflicts considerable suffering to the bull (and sometimes his protagonists). Many areas of the world where bullfighting has been popular are now curtailing the practice because of its brutality. This thread is closed now, pending further discussion by the Moderators.

13th August 2016, 03:50 AM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	This thread is now open once more. Please everyone, as Jim said in the other thread;"let us keep to the subject of the weapons alone, and to leave the rest of the obvious controversy on the bullfighting issues out of the discussion." Best, Robert

13th August 2016, 04:51 PM	#14
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	VANDOO, could you elaborate on item # 4, which to me looks like a riding crop? It does not appear to me to be an effective weapon.First, the handle appears to be very small, with no guard and made of metal;I imagine that it would be very difficult to hold, especially if sweat and blood were added into the mix.Another problem for me is that the blade appears to be very flimsy; is it cruciform; can you show us a picture of the naked blade.Since it looks like a riding crop, could it be an emergency weapon for the Picadors?

13th August 2016, 06:50 PM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Drac2, thank you for noting that, and very interesting question on exactly what that is, it does look like a riding crop. In looking further into these weapons, I must say the material which references or attends to them in the literature is sparse. As I mentioned, over the years I did find the swords interesting in a sense of exotica because of that. In various cases of course in the scope of Spanish and Portuguese swords, some of these would be mentioned. What I had hoped to discover was the older examples of actual swords used in these events, and what sort of sword or style might have been used in the early times. We know that before c.1726, the events were quite different, and select status individuals were involved with much of the contact from horseback and using a kind of lance (rejones). In 1726, when the concept of a lone swordsman on foot was introduced, I believe by Francisco Romero in Ronda, Spain, he apparently used a sword concealed by the red cape (muleta). The sword is described as an estoque, which is of course a type of European sword for thrusting. In some discussions I found on line with notes from Javier Ramos in 2006, who if I recall is in Spain, he suggests that a rapier would have broken in such thrusting in these cases, and that the cup guard would have caused encumbrance of the swordsman's hand. He suggests that the length of the rapier blades would have lent to such breaking and suggested that the advent of the small sword may have been more in keeping with such thrusts. The hilt was apparently flat, much as we see in the swords which appear to have been traditionally in place for some time, and was held with the pommel in the hand and two fingers over the flat ricasso. While I had wondered if the versions of munitions or arming grade cup hilts might have been used in the earliest use of 'estoque de verdad' (real sword) as following the estoque simulado in the style brought in by Romero. With this it seems that was not the case. With regard to the daggers, I believe termed 'puntilla', what I notice is the curious flared or leaf like blade. It seems to me that is like the points of some of the large zweihander or other large swords used in Europe in hunting. Though I had brought in earlier the idea of these swords and daggers having possible association with hunting weapons, in checking "Hunting Weapons" (Blackmore) there were no references to bullfight weapons The instance I also mentioned earlier regarding the bullfight sword having been examined in a study for military swords was with Major John Gaspard LeMarchant who in 1788 was working on developing more effective swords for British cavalry. His review of prototypes included, as he noted, those of "..Turks, Mamalukes, Moors and Hungarians", with the result being the M1796 light cavalry sabre. However with swords for heavy cavalry, the generals balked at the idea of sabres, and insisted on thrusting swords. It was in this context that the Spanish bullfight sword came into the study (from 'LeMarchant: Scientific Soldier", Thoumaine, but cannot recall exact details). Clearly this was not a combat weapon, but interesting to see in this situation. Also interesting in other influences from the 'corrido'/ bullfight, in cases in use of the well known navaja knife, tbere are occasions known where a special cloak known as 'mantas' was employed. While not directly proven, the similarity is compelling. I still have not found genuine examples of early bullfight swords or weapons of any true vintage, and have hoped to find early examples to compare to the well known modern forms.