Boarding Axe or Fire Axe

CutlassCollector · 12th February 2013, 01:09 PM

Gentlemen,

I thought this axe was definitely a French Boarding Axe but now I'm not so sure. Your opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks.

M ELEY · 12th February 2013, 05:22 PM

Very Nice piece! Definitely French, based on the squared eye, forward/rear facing langets, bearded blade, etc. Again, this is a variation of the hache de borde, I'm assuming private purchase (no govt markings?). Haft has been radically shortened, as was typical for these as they were used well past their prime (essentially, the first ship fire axes WERE old boarding axes). The spike on this one is hefty and down-curved, allowing for use as both a pick, prying tool and gives it the distinct ability to drag away fallen lines. I'd say this one is the real deal. Where do you find your items, my friend?!! I need to start shopping there-

Atlantia · 12th February 2013, 05:38 PM

I have to say that it looks like an early 20th century central European fireman's axe to me, but these can be problematic to place as they are somewhat 'related' (Boarding/Fireman's/Sappers......)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16469

Have a look at this completed eBay listing for an axe described as an Antique German fireman's axe:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-GE...-/360523052060

If yours is a French Boarding axe then what sort of date, early 19thC?
It looks very clean and machined to me, that also makes me think 20thC.
Like I say though, these are problematic at best. And your axe is certainly very similar to some definately genuine French boarding axes of the first half 19thC that I've seen.

Don't suppose that there are any stamps or markings?

CutlassCollector · 13th February 2013, 11:23 AM

Thanks guys, always good to get your input. Mark, you are right about boarding axes - don't see one for months and then several come along. Although I'm beginning to wish I'd stuck to cutlasses!
The jury still out on this one as Atlantia has a very good point the lines are very well machined. There are no markings to give any further clues.

I wondered if the langets were significant as they extend through the head and butt against the top. I associate that with boarding axes and a web trawl does not reveal it as a common feature among fire axes - could be wrong of course!
Any thoughts?

Atlantia · 13th February 2013, 07:39 PM

I remembered a good post by Billman a while back on the subject of french axes.
Note #428 in the picture below (Billman says 1920s onwards)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...96&postcount=5
Not exactly the same but it certainly shows the 'problem' with these axes.

M ELEY · 13th February 2013, 11:14 PM

My points exactly when it comes to these types of items. This is a tricky one and I just can't be sure one way or the other. The German fire ax is extremely close in design, but not an exact replica. The one displayed at the top of this thread appears to have more legitimate aging. Although the head is cast, this doesn't necessarily exclude it as a boarding tool. The spike is longer and four-sided. Frustrating to pin down for sure-

The pics by Billman are good, but need more clarification. Are we saying all of the ax headed pictured in that catalog are post-1920? In that case, the conclusion is that all earlier forms of axes were being reproduced into the 20th century and any collected pieces would have to be judged on an individual basis. After all, the catalog picture is showing us everything from shingling axes to tomahawks to hammer-pole axes, many of the patterns made in the earlier centuries...

CutlassCollector · 15th February 2013, 12:05 PM

Thanks gentlemen.
I think this axe remains in the 'not sure' locker for now.

Although Gilkerson covers the 'standard' Scandinavian, British, French and US patterns he also reminds us that merchant vessels and privateers had their own armouries and that even government warships could restock using the local blacksmiths of what ever port they were in if the need arose.

So I guess it's always going to be hard to decide on the ones that look the part, are the right age and not of the 'standard patterns' - keeps things interesting though.

Atlantia · 27th February 2013, 07:18 PM

Intresting as it is identical to yours in all ways so we are clearly seeing a 'type' or pattern. The handle seems original as well. Also a very similar level of preservation and general condition.
Just finished on that well known site:
axe
So clearly some people DO see this exact type as boarding axes.

Atlantia · 27th February 2013, 07:27 PM

Oh frack!
Just noticed the identical woodworm holes and traces of black paint.
I've had it on watch for a week thinking "I must show that to Cutlass collector when it finishes" and it's the same bloody axe isn't it?

Can we have a smilie for facepalm?

CutlassCollector · 27th February 2013, 09:23 PM

Sorry Atlantia, I should maybe have said. It was offered to me directly, before being put up for sale, by someone that I had bought several items from in the past and I accepted on condition it was a boarding axe. The deal was cancelled with no hard feelings. It did not go up for sale on 'that site' until well after that.
I think that was within the rules and I have just re-read them, but correct me if I'm wrong. CC

M ELEY · 28th February 2013, 04:23 PM

Despite the later versions, I still vote that it could be a boarding piece. I think the consensus is, if you don't buy one that's gov't made (i.e. not a private purchase), you have to take a chance. I have one with a flared blade, rounded eye, beak-like Brit spike, forward and rear facing langets and signs aging, but the head looks just as 'shiny' or more than yours. I stand behind my model that it's private purchase mid-19th, but others might not agree-

CutlassCollector · 28th February 2013, 10:35 PM

Hi Mark,
Yes boarding axes are a minefield but I do appreciate the fact that forum members and especially both you and Gene will put your opinions down and allow the discussion to develop - how else can knowledge improve, especially for inexperienced collectors like myself. You may well be right on this one - I still change my mind every time I look at the pictures!

I found that axe from one of your threads a couple of years ago - great piece and interesting how it combines features from different models. Talking of envy - I have a feeling your collection may make my eyes pop!
CC

M ELEY · 1st March 2013, 03:32 AM

Thank you very much! I think with us collectors of naval, it is the passion for our field that keeps us going. Actually, as much as I love my collection, there are many here (Dmitry!!) that put my meagre stuff to shame! Be that as it may, still love trying to find the lost treasures. You yourself have some pretty amazing finds. It would seem many in Europe and the U.K. have better access than we do here in the States (just my observation. Could be wrong)

12th February 2013, 01:09 PM	#1
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Boarding Axe or Fire Axe Gentlemen, I thought this axe was definitely a French Boarding Axe but now I'm not so sure. Your opinions would be appreciated. Thanks. Attached Images

12th February 2013, 05:38 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I have to say that it looks like an early 20th century central European fireman's axe to me, but these can be problematic to place as they are somewhat 'related' (Boarding/Fireman's/Sappers......) http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16469 Have a look at this completed eBay listing for an axe described as an Antique German fireman's axe: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-GE...-/360523052060 If yours is a French Boarding axe then what sort of date, early 19thC? It looks very clean and machined to me, that also makes me think 20thC. Like I say though, these are problematic at best. And your axe is certainly very similar to some definately genuine French boarding axes of the first half 19thC that I've seen. Don't suppose that there are any stamps or markings? Attached Images Last edited by Atlantia; 13th February 2013 at 08:51 AM. Reason: Picture from ebay auction: 20thC German fireman's axe

13th February 2013, 07:39 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I remembered a good post by Billman a while back on the subject of french axes. Note #428 in the picture below (Billman says 1920s onwards) http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...96&postcount=5 Not exactly the same but it certainly shows the 'problem' with these axes. Attached Images

27th February 2013, 07:18 PM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Intresting as it is identical to yours in all ways so we are clearly seeing a 'type' or pattern. The handle seems original as well. Also a very similar level of preservation and general condition. Just finished on that well known site: axe So clearly some people DO see this exact type as boarding axes. Attached Images

12th February 2013, 05:22 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Very Nice piece! Definitely French, based on the squared eye, forward/rear facing langets, bearded blade, etc. Again, this is a variation of the hache de borde, I'm assuming private purchase (no govt markings?). Haft has been radically shortened, as was typical for these as they were used well past their prime (essentially, the first ship fire axes WERE old boarding axes). The spike on this one is hefty and down-curved, allowing for use as both a pick, prying tool and gives it the distinct ability to drag away fallen lines. I'd say this one is the real deal. Where do you find your items, my friend?!! I need to start shopping there-

13th February 2013, 11:23 AM	#4
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Langets Thanks guys, always good to get your input. Mark, you are right about boarding axes - don't see one for months and then several come along. Although I'm beginning to wish I'd stuck to cutlasses! The jury still out on this one as Atlantia has a very good point the lines are very well machined. There are no markings to give any further clues. I wondered if the langets were significant as they extend through the head and butt against the top. I associate that with boarding axes and a web trawl does not reveal it as a common feature among fire axes - could be wrong of course! Any thoughts?

13th February 2013, 11:14 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	My points exactly when it comes to these types of items. This is a tricky one and I just can't be sure one way or the other. The German fire ax is extremely close in design, but not an exact replica. The one displayed at the top of this thread appears to have more legitimate aging. Although the head is cast, this doesn't necessarily exclude it as a boarding tool. The spike is longer and four-sided. Frustrating to pin down for sure- The pics by Billman are good, but need more clarification. Are we saying all of the ax headed pictured in that catalog are post-1920? In that case, the conclusion is that all earlier forms of axes were being reproduced into the 20th century and any collected pieces would have to be judged on an individual basis. After all, the catalog picture is showing us everything from shingling axes to tomahawks to hammer-pole axes, many of the patterns made in the earlier centuries...

15th February 2013, 12:05 PM	#7
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Thanks gentlemen. I think this axe remains in the 'not sure' locker for now. Although Gilkerson covers the 'standard' Scandinavian, British, French and US patterns he also reminds us that merchant vessels and privateers had their own armouries and that even government warships could restock using the local blacksmiths of what ever port they were in if the need arose. So I guess it's always going to be hard to decide on the ones that look the part, are the right age and not of the 'standard patterns' - keeps things interesting though.

27th February 2013, 07:27 PM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Oh frack! Just noticed the identical woodworm holes and traces of black paint. I've had it on watch for a week thinking "I must show that to Cutlass collector when it finishes" and it's the same bloody axe isn't it? Can we have a smilie for facepalm?

27th February 2013, 09:23 PM	#10
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Sorry Atlantia, I should maybe have said. It was offered to me directly, before being put up for sale, by someone that I had bought several items from in the past and I accepted on condition it was a boarding axe. The deal was cancelled with no hard feelings. It did not go up for sale on 'that site' until well after that. I think that was within the rules and I have just re-read them, but correct me if I'm wrong. CC

28th February 2013, 04:23 PM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Despite the later versions, I still vote that it could be a boarding piece. I think the consensus is, if you don't buy one that's gov't made (i.e. not a private purchase), you have to take a chance. I have one with a flared blade, rounded eye, beak-like Brit spike, forward and rear facing langets and signs aging, but the head looks just as 'shiny' or more than yours. I stand behind my model that it's private purchase mid-19th, but others might not agree-

28th February 2013, 10:35 PM	#12
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Hi Mark, Yes boarding axes are a minefield but I do appreciate the fact that forum members and especially both you and Gene will put your opinions down and allow the discussion to develop - how else can knowledge improve, especially for inexperienced collectors like myself. You may well be right on this one - I still change my mind every time I look at the pictures! I found that axe from one of your threads a couple of years ago - great piece and interesting how it combines features from different models. Talking of envy - I have a feeling your collection may make my eyes pop! CC

1st March 2013, 03:32 AM	#13
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Thank you very much! I think with us collectors of naval, it is the passion for our field that keeps us going. Actually, as much as I love my collection, there are many here (Dmitry!!) that put my meagre stuff to shame! Be that as it may, still love trying to find the lost treasures. You yourself have some pretty amazing finds. It would seem many in Europe and the U.K. have better access than we do here in the States (just my observation. Could be wrong)