Unusual nimcha blade: need help

ariel · 7th April 2018, 07:34 PM

Here is a run-of-the-mill Moroccan Nimcha.
One unusual thing about it is its blade.
As a rule, Nimchas carry curved saber blade, and the majority I have encountered thus far are European trade examples.
This one has straight blade with large false edge. Also, locally-made blades have 3 narrow fullers. This one has 7.
The fullering and the false edge ( and, to a much less degree, straight construction) are very different from the usual local pattern. No markings to claim European origin.

Is this a more sophisticated local production?
Or, trade European blade with no markings?

Jens Nordlunde · 7th April 2018, 09:26 PM

Ariel,
The number of fullers seem to be very big, but what about the ricasso?
As you know I do know very little about these swords.
Jens

fernando · 7th April 2018, 10:18 PM

How about a close up of the blade far to the right, where the fullers converge.

Kubur · 7th April 2018, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

As a rule, Nimchas carry curved saber blade, and the majority I have encountered thus far are European trade examples.

Hi Ariel
I've seen many straight blades on nimchas, it's not uncommon,
most of the time old imported blades
But I can't say nothing about this blade.
Kubur

ariel · 8th April 2018, 01:41 AM

Here is the distal part of the blade with converging fullers.
I checked all my Arabian swords, including 2 Nimchas from Morocco: none of them have a ricasso, including trade European blades.

TVV · 8th April 2018, 02:27 AM

Ariel, glad you acquired this sword and thank you for sharing it here for discussion. From what I remember from the auction pictures you have also done an excellent job cleaning it. I wonder if the blade could be Indian due to the ricasso and the uneven fullering.

Teodor

fernando · 8th April 2018, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

... I wonder if the blade could be Indian due to the ricasso and the uneven fullering...

That's what i was daring to guess ... on an uneducated basis, though.

Kubur · 8th April 2018, 02:05 PM

Me too, Indian is reasonnable.
Now the question is do you think that the blade was added by a collector recently or in Morocco in the 18th 19th c.?
I'm very suspicious about an Indian blade on a Moroccan nimcha...

ariel · 8th April 2018, 02:13 PM

Guys,
Ricasso serves as a differentiating sign only between Indian and Persian Shamshir blades. Many European blades had ricasso and I wonder whether Indians not borrowed the idea of a ricasso from Europe.
I will have to look at my Indian straight- bladed ones.
Thanks to Jens for his gentle hint.
Fernando, did the converging fullers help you?
TVV, the cleaning job has just begun:-) Its wooden handle is dirty, dry and cracked, and has a lot of nasty thin splinters and worm holes. I will have to polish it, otherwise I would not be able to hold it without thick gloves. Then the natural wood color will disappear. Would staining it ( say, dark mahogany) be appropriate? Also, would filling the holes with stainable filler be OK?

ariel · 8th April 2018, 02:18 PM

Kubur,
No worry here about recent manipulations. It is all as original, as the moment it was created.

But I share your doubt about the Indian origin of the blade. I tend to think it is one of the multiple trade European ones and that is exactly why I posted it here.

fernando · 8th April 2018, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

...Fernando, did the converging fullers help you? ...

As i said, just an un-educated guess. One based on sight of some Indian fullering fashion, as seen, for one, in page 105 of Jorge Caravana collection catalogue (Rites of Power), which i assume you have a copy. But probably this is the wrong issue.

-

ariel · 8th April 2018, 06:59 PM

Yes, I do. I even have an identical one:-)
But this is a Tanjore katar commonly attributable to 16 century with a triangular form. One cannot have any other fullering.
We are talking about later swords, don’t we?

Any similar sword examples from 18-9 century?

I am not trying to be stubborn, just want to get to the bottom of it if possible.
I asked an acquaintance of mine who is very good in European swords, but he couldn’t place it.

Could the moderator create a link to the European section of this Forum?

fernando · 8th April 2018, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

...Could the moderator create a link to the European section of this Forum? ...

It may be copied, yes.

thinreadline · 18th April 2018, 10:12 AM

Here is one of my Indian swords with a similar multi fullered straight blade .

fernando · 18th April 2018, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinreadline

Here is one of my Indian swords with a similar multi fullered straight blade .

They looks like being made with a different technique (tool). While yours are the smooth type the ones in Ariel's sword are sharper ... right ?

thinreadline · 19th April 2018, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

They looks like being made with a different technique (tool). While yours are the smooth type the ones in Ariel's sword are sharper ... right ?

I couldnt really say ...

ausjulius · 22nd April 2018, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

They looks like being made with a different technique (tool). While yours are the smooth type the ones in Ariel's sword are sharper ... right ?

they are all made by the same tool a fullering plane.
just on the indian one looks like its be polished to a more rounded surface once fullered.

fernando · 22nd April 2018, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausjulius

they are all made by the same tool a fullering plane.
just on the indian one looks like its be polished to a more rounded surface once fullered.

Oh i see; thank you for that

.

ariel · 22nd April 2018, 03:09 PM

Indian and especially Arabian are of a uniform width. Mine are more complex: wide-narrow etc. That , together with a well formed false edge, was the feature to tilt me toward a European source. Ricasso is a well-known feature of Indian blades, but I can’t recall it on locally made N. African ones.

As I suspected, a little but perplexing mystery:-)

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd April 2018, 04:05 PM

Ariel,
I think I see 5 fullers on one side of your sword and 7 on
the other side, is that correct?
Are the fullers on your sword as even as the ones shown on thinredlines sword? It looks as if the fullers are not as straight.
Could the blade have been made of Indian ingots?
Indian ingots were sold to Arabia where blades were made, and exported to India.
Could the blade have been made somewhere in Arabia, 'copying' an European blade, ment for the Indian market - but sold to Morocco?

ariel · 22nd April 2018, 05:35 PM

No, 7 on each side. All very straight and in the same order.
As to the "travel" from an ingot to the final place of sale, - anything is possible.

Just all my Indian and especially Arabian blades have fullers that are not as straight and even as this one.

I told you, guys, it is confusing.....

Jens Nordlunde · 24th April 2018, 01:08 PM

In Robert Elgood's Jodhpur booke, vol. I, pp. 218-219, he shows an almost straight Indian blade (kirich/kirach) with four fullers.
Maybe your blade is Indian.

ariel · 26th April 2018, 04:35 AM

Yes.
And p.200: even with a false edge.
But how on Earth did it get to North Africa?

Jens Nordlunde · 26th April 2018, 10:36 AM

I dont know, but I see one possibility. When the caravans from north Africa aand Arabia were returning from India, they needed to bring back items for trade, so maybe the blade was part of such items.

Kubur · 3rd May 2018, 09:26 AM

Ariel, a small treat for you, another sword from North Africa with an Indian blade

ariel · 3rd May 2018, 02:05 PM

I hear you, guys.
But then p.198 in Elgood vol.1: virtually identical one unhesitantly attributed to Europe.

Can we reliably distinguish genuine European multifullered trade blades from their Indian copies?
Other than in cases of obvious European inscriptions?

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd May 2018, 04:48 PM

Must certainly not from pictures, and even if you have the blade in the hand, I doubt that you can be certain, as some of the Indian smiths were very good when it came to copying blades.

Kubur · 3rd May 2018, 06:34 PM

Well, let me add that the sword that I posted has a Caucasian blade with an inscription of Tippu Sultan from Mysore.
What a complicated story...

ariel · 5th May 2018, 02:50 AM

You must be joking:-)
Any real evidence?

Kubur · 5th May 2018, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

You must be joking:-)
Any real evidence?

http://www.tessier-sarrou.com/html/f...rdre=&aff=1&r=

Its good enough to me!

7th April 2018, 07:34 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Unusual nimcha blade: need help Here is a run-of-the-mill Moroccan Nimcha. One unusual thing about it is its blade. As a rule, Nimchas carry curved saber blade, and the majority I have encountered thus far are European trade examples. This one has straight blade with large false edge. Also, locally-made blades have 3 narrow fullers. This one has 7. The fullering and the false edge ( and, to a much less degree, straight construction) are very different from the usual local pattern. No markings to claim European origin. Is this a more sophisticated local production? Or, trade European blade with no markings? Attached Images

8th April 2018, 01:41 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here is the distal part of the blade with converging fullers. I checked all my Arabian swords, including 2 Nimchas from Morocco: none of them have a ricasso, including trade European blades. Attached Images

18th April 2018, 10:12 AM	#14
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	Here is one of my Indian swords with a similar multi fullered straight blade . Attached Images

3rd May 2018, 09:26 AM	#25
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Ariel, a small treat for you, another sword from North Africa with an Indian blade Attached Images

7th April 2018, 09:26 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, The number of fullers seem to be very big, but what about the ricasso? As you know I do know very little about these swords. Jens

7th April 2018, 10:18 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	How about a close up of the blade far to the right, where the fullers converge.

8th April 2018, 02:27 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	Ariel, glad you acquired this sword and thank you for sharing it here for discussion. From what I remember from the auction pictures you have also done an excellent job cleaning it. I wonder if the blade could be Indian due to the ricasso and the uneven fullering. Teodor

8th April 2018, 02:05 PM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Me too, Indian is reasonnable. Now the question is do you think that the blade was added by a collector recently or in Morocco in the 18th 19th c.? I'm very suspicious about an Indian blade on a Moroccan nimcha...

8th April 2018, 02:13 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Guys, Ricasso serves as a differentiating sign only between Indian and Persian Shamshir blades. Many European blades had ricasso and I wonder whether Indians not borrowed the idea of a ricasso from Europe. I will have to look at my Indian straight- bladed ones. Thanks to Jens for his gentle hint. Fernando, did the converging fullers help you? TVV, the cleaning job has just begun:-) Its wooden handle is dirty, dry and cracked, and has a lot of nasty thin splinters and worm holes. I will have to polish it, otherwise I would not be able to hold it without thick gloves. Then the natural wood color will disappear. Would staining it ( say, dark mahogany) be appropriate? Also, would filling the holes with stainable filler be OK?

8th April 2018, 02:18 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur, No worry here about recent manipulations. It is all as original, as the moment it was created. But I share your doubt about the Indian origin of the blade. I tend to think it is one of the multiple trade European ones and that is exactly why I posted it here.

8th April 2018, 06:59 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, I do. I even have an identical one:-) But this is a Tanjore katar commonly attributable to 16 century with a triangular form. One cannot have any other fullering. We are talking about later swords, don’t we? Any similar sword examples from 18-9 century? I am not trying to be stubborn, just want to get to the bottom of it if possible. I asked an acquaintance of mine who is very good in European swords, but he couldn’t place it. Could the moderator create a link to the European section of this Forum?

22nd April 2018, 03:09 PM	#19
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Indian and especially Arabian are of a uniform width. Mine are more complex: wide-narrow etc. That , together with a well formed false edge, was the feature to tilt me toward a European source. Ricasso is a well-known feature of Indian blades, but I can’t recall it on locally made N. African ones. As I suspected, a little but perplexing mystery:-)

22nd April 2018, 04:05 PM	#20
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, I think I see 5 fullers on one side of your sword and 7 on the other side, is that correct? Are the fullers on your sword as even as the ones shown on thinredlines sword? It looks as if the fullers are not as straight. Could the blade have been made of Indian ingots? Indian ingots were sold to Arabia where blades were made, and exported to India. Could the blade have been made somewhere in Arabia, 'copying' an European blade, ment for the Indian market - but sold to Morocco?

22nd April 2018, 05:35 PM	#21
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No, 7 on each side. All very straight and in the same order. As to the "travel" from an ingot to the final place of sale, - anything is possible. Just all my Indian and especially Arabian blades have fullers that are not as straight and even as this one. I told you, guys, it is confusing.....

24th April 2018, 01:08 PM	#22
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	In Robert Elgood's Jodhpur booke, vol. I, pp. 218-219, he shows an almost straight Indian blade (kirich/kirach) with four fullers. Maybe your blade is Indian.

26th April 2018, 04:35 AM	#23
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes. And p.200: even with a false edge. But how on Earth did it get to North Africa?

26th April 2018, 10:36 AM	#24
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I dont know, but I see one possibility. When the caravans from north Africa aand Arabia were returning from India, they needed to bring back items for trade, so maybe the blade was part of such items.

3rd May 2018, 02:05 PM	#26
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I hear you, guys. But then p.198 in Elgood vol.1: virtually identical one unhesitantly attributed to Europe. Can we reliably distinguish genuine European multifullered trade blades from their Indian copies? Other than in cases of obvious European inscriptions?

3rd May 2018, 04:48 PM	#27
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Must certainly not from pictures, and even if you have the blade in the hand, I doubt that you can be certain, as some of the Indian smiths were very good when it came to copying blades.

3rd May 2018, 06:34 PM	#28
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Well, let me add that the sword that I posted has a Caucasian blade with an inscription of Tippu Sultan from Mysore. What a complicated story...

5th May 2018, 02:50 AM	#29
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You must be joking:-) Any real evidence?