Nimcha (?) with European Blade for Comments

[A.alnakkas]

Hello all,

I got this one today, was in a poor condition but cleaned it up. It could benefit from a polish I think.

The blade seems to be a European trade blade? There are some latin inscriptions on it. Some other inscriptions exist also but barely show..

The scabbard is beat up but the wood is solid. There are prints of what used to cover it, any idea how it used to look like??

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Lofty,
Interesting example which appears to be a sabre of the form which seems commonly held to be used by Bedouin tribes from the Negev into the Sinai Peninsula. As often discussed through the years the 'nimcha' term has been widely misapplied, and typically used by collectors for the Moroccan sabre with distinct guard configuration. From a semantics point of view of course, and as you know, it is easier to use the term in this parlance, I just mentioned it for the benefit of our wide range of non-participating readers, who scan our pages to learn more. As always I look forward to their joining us eventually. I am inclined to favor the descriptive term Bedouin sa'if.

The blade is as you note European and very well could be latter 18th, but probably 19th century, as these heavy sabre blades which entered these spheres via Red Sea trade in the 19th century were reused for often countless generations. The mounts are of course much more recent as evidenced by the screws etc.

The cursive script ligature, or more likely acrostic, is European and used often in acrostic sense to abbreviate a phrase or slogan, even perhaps an acronym for a particular group. I cannot see the letters properly but there seem to be four, so would not be initials.

These swords have a certain rugged charm to them as they reflect the fascinating character of the Bedouin tribes, who often anachronistically used these weapons well into the 20th century. This blade could very well have seen service in the WWI campaigns in these regions, as well as the long history of internecine warfare .
While many collectors might scoff at these rugged old warriors, you are astutely aware the colorful history they hold. Nicely done !

All the best,
Jim

[Atlantia]

Hi Lotfy,

Lovely sword!
Could the script read 'NOJA' or possibly even 'NOIA' and refer to the places Noja/Noia in Spain?

Just guessing of course.

Best
Gene

P.S. I suggest this because presumably there was much trade between Spain and North Africa?

[A.alnakkas]

hey,

Jim, when I made this topic, I remembered one made earlier by TVV which there was a discussion about the origin of these sabers. I guess we need to find a new term to describe them? Bedouin saber works just fine to me I am actually very happy they come from the Sinai region, as I was planning on having a saber from that region. Any idea how the scabbard used to look like in its better days? I wont touch it though I like the roughness of this piece.

I am a big fan of rugged beat up pieces.. Infact most of my collection is like that :P

Gene, There are other letters but they are faded and some barely even show. So cant be sure :-(

Thanks both,

Lotfy

[Dom]

Hi my Brot.

I'm backing completely what said Jim,
it's not a "nimcha" even if the general shape for the handle remind a bit ...
it's manifestly, a "Saïf"

about the letters, the form of it, it's called "English form"
the 4 letters could be read as well as : " N D I A" ...
I can not imagine, that what do you suppose being erased,
could might be, ... be an "I"

anyway, I love his rough aspect, a "Saïf for a warrior" not for a court representation ...
and it has his scabbard, that for me I consider as important

MABROUK, and all the best

à +

Dom

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi my Brot.

I'm backing completely what said Jim,
it's not a "nimcha" even if the general shape for the handle remind a bit ...
it's manifestly, a "Saïf"

about the letters, the form of it, it's called "English form"
the 4 letters could be read as well as : " N D I A" ...
I can not imagine, that what do you suppose being erased,
could might be, ... be an "I"

anyway, I love his rough aspect, a "Saïf for a warrior" not for a court representation ...
and it has his scabbard, that for me I consider as important

MABROUK, and all the best

à +

Dom

Shukran shaikh Dom

Is there a way to bring out the faded letters?

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Lofty and Dom, and Gene, interesting and well placed suggestion.
Lofty, Im not too sure of the scabbards on these and as far as I know, few survive. I am hoping that Sa'ar will come in on this as his knowledge on these is superb.

All the best,
Jim

[ariel]

I am looking at it and think ... South Aravian.... The Sinai/Negev beduin sabres do not have either D-guards or quillons. They also do not have the cavity at the top of the handle, which is a common feature of N. African or Aravian sabers. That being said, nothing is impossible: the whole area was in a constant flux of beduin tribes, and mixed forms are dime a dozen. Also, the fact I never saw one does not mean they do not exist. I like these rugged, crude and unostentatious weapons very much.
I have been given a present of a "real" beduin sword from the Negev, newly made: a bastardized version of a Turkish kilij ( handle and crossguard) and home made shamshir-like blade made on a grinding wheel. Nothing touristy about it, it was specially made as a present to a very respected doctor in gratitude for saving sheik son's life. Top of the line. That was the modern beduin impression of the luxury sword :-) Times are changing...

[Dom]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Shukran shaikh Dom

Is there a way to bring out the faded letters?

Allah y barifik
yes, several ways
- with numeric camera, focus function, then with small computer program , inverse black and white
- with graphic pencil, after have put a paper sheet, pass over, and over ...
the light pressure you will give, will empathize the surface anomalies,
and should reveled what is in hollow
- more ... worst pass over the blade some printing ink, and then with a roll (smooth surface) and a paper sheet, made a ... print

even if it's a solution, I don't advise it, or in extreme solution

à +

Dom

[A.alnakkas]

Ariel, Thanks. I think the scabbard also has similarity to the scabbards on zanzibari nimchas but thats not conclusive.

Can you share photos of the saif that the bedouin gave to you? I have a Palastinian saif in my collection, looks alot like a normal badawi saif but abit more crude and with a broad blade.

Dom, Will try the camera thingy but being a cave man, I doubt I'll know how to do it...

[Richard G]

Dear Mr Alnakkas,
I would agree with Ariel in suggesting South Arabia. The blade and scabbard on their own look as if they could have come from a "Zanzibar" saif. If that is the case the scabbard covering could have been black asses skin shrunken onto thread laid in scrolls etc. to give an embossed effect, often seen on the scabbards of Omani quattaras. I know this because I had one once.
Regards
Richard

[A.alnakkas]

Thanks Richard, I think so.. maybe the Zanzibari saif reached Sinai?

Pictures of one of my Zanzibari saif:

(Also added pictures of my Palastinian Saif.. Or atleast the scabbard decoration is very similar to common Palastinian design)

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Could the script read 'NOJA' or possibly even 'NOIA'

Hi Gene
I know that we have a different reading, it's well to compare several hypotheses
as far as a presentation of arguments come to support an allegation

here the same picture, processed to reveal what is not clear
I think, to read a "D"
friendly yours, all the best

à +

Dom

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Lofty,
Interesting example which appears to be a sabre of the form which seems commonly held to be used by Bedouin tribes from the Negev into the Sinai Peninsula. As often discussed through the years the 'nimcha' term has been widely misapplied, and typically used by collectors for the Moroccan sabre with distinct guard configuration. From a semantics point of view of course, and as you know, it is easier to use the term in this parlance, I just mentioned it for the benefit of our wide range of non-participating readers, who scan our pages to learn more. As always I look forward to their joining us eventually. I am inclined to favor the descriptive term Bedouin sa'if.

The blade is as you note European and very well could be latter 18th, but probably 19th century, as these heavy sabre blades which entered these spheres via Red Sea trade in the 19th century were reused for often countless generations. The mounts are of course much more recent as evidenced by the screws etc.

The cursive script ligature, or more likely acrostic, is European and used often in acrostic sense to abbreviate a phrase or slogan, even perhaps an acronym for a particular group. I cannot see the letters properly but there seem to be four, so would not be initials.

These swords have a certain rugged charm to them as they reflect the fascinating character of the Bedouin tribes, who often anachronistically used these weapons well into the 20th century. This blade could very well have seen service in the WWI campaigns in these regions, as well as the long history of internecine warfare .
While many collectors might scoff at these rugged old warriors, you are astutely aware the colorful history they hold. Nicely done !

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim~ There is a lot of mis application of the term Nimcha. "Bedouin" I agree, is a far better description. Many like this can be seen in Yemen and I wonder if that was the production centre for rehilting(amongst others?). It occurred to me that the Moroccan Nimcha migrated in form overland and by sea trade routes to Zanzibar where it bounced out around the Zanzibar Hub; after some changes in hilt style. There is, however, a lot of fog surrounding its spread to Northern Bedouin groups in this form... I thought that the variant with the crossguard at #12 was more the Saudia style? (According to Butin) as well as Palestinian ...and Syrian.

Rather as a romantic note on the possibility of influence coming from quite another direction ~ Sri Lanka ~ I commend the reader to see the thread by Kurt [B]Oman, Morocco or Zanzibar?B] on Forum.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[carlos]

Beatiful sword, similar one I posted in forum years ago.
Congratulations
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=144

carlos

[A.alnakkas]

Thanks Carlos! The one you have is a good example.

Ibrahim, reason why I think the badawi saif is Palastinian is the scabbard. But the hilt style is Saudi with minor variations in the silver strap and pommel cap.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the replies Lofty and Ibrahiim.
I think the sa'if in #12 at top with chainguard is most likely Hadhramauti in accord with Elgood's notes in "Arabian Arms and Armour", which has sa'if with varying hilt forms and silverwork with chainguards. The sharply canted pommel cap seems to concur with other Arabian swords seen in that reference also.
The 'Zanzibari' reference to the second sword (#12) with raised ring crossguard characteristic of these 'nimchas' in popular classification and per Buttin does seem to fall in line with the sword Lofty has posted in comparing the hilt furnishings. I would be inclined to agree that typically the Bedouin or 'Palestinian' sabres do not have knuckleguards, and the hangers and sabres of Yemen do usually have the triple roundels in the grip. But here is the rub in properly identifying these blades which come from the Red Sea trade and have been refurbished through generations.

Zanzibari swords were apparantly highly imported in Yemen from there, the diffusion between Yemeni entrepots and Sinai trade centers would be quite understandable.

All best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Thanks Carlos! The one you have is a good example.

Ibrahim, reason why I think the badawi saif is Palastinian is the scabbard. But the hilt style is Saudi with minor variations in the silver strap and pommel cap.

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ Point taken, however, on a broader note I think more explanation may be needed to/for the general reader on what is meant by bedawi and who the bedouin groups were etc... I have a map of Bedouin groups and will post in a day or two...

I think the diffusion of swords follows several trade routes by land and sea, pilgrimage routes and lastly bedouin movement... I tend to further subdevide Buttins vast grouping of Zanzibari Nimchas by splitting off several other named groups ie The Yemeni Nimcha, The Palestinian Nimcha and The Bedawi Nimcha. I think the Hawkshead better known as the Karabela, though not mentioned yet in thread, is simply another Nimcha.

The Red Sea was a peculiar place; The prevailing north wind was a big problem for shipping under sail. Before steam (and I think prior to the discovery of the lanteen sail) most goods moving north were dropped at ports near the mouth of the Red Sea and vast camel trains did the rest. Movement of goods North and South was common place.

In 1869 everything changed with the opening of the Suez Canal as the volume of goods reached industrial proportions..both ways.

On the Palestinian sword am I right in assuming that it derived from the Zanzibar hub via Yemen and Arabia then rehilted in perhaps Jerusalem? Or do you think these swords came in from the Mediterranean more direct or perhaps off the Cairo hub?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for the replies Lofty and Ibrahiim.
I think the sa'if in #12 at top with chainguard is most likely Hadhramauti in accord with Elgood's notes in "Arabian Arms and Armour", which has sa'if with varying hilt forms and silverwork with chainguards. The sharply canted pommel cap seems to concur with other Arabian swords seen in that reference also.
The 'Zanzibari' reference to the second sword (#12) with raised ring crossguard characteristic of these 'nimchas' in popular classification and per Buttin does seem to fall in line with the sword Lofty has posted in comparing the hilt furnishings. I would be inclined to agree that typically the Bedouin or 'Palestinian' sabres do not have knuckleguards, and the hangers and sabres of Yemen do usually have the triple roundels in the grip. But here is the rub in properly identifying these blades which come from the Red Sea trade and have been refurbished through generations.

Zanzibari swords were apparantly highly imported in Yemen from there, the diffusion between Yemeni entrepots and Sinai trade centers would be quite understandable.

All best regards,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ This Buttin Nimcha family is a very large group of swords...Follow any one of the styles in a certain direction and as you say "Theres the rub" as first one small detail changes then a whole series of things happens and away goes the hilt ~ Im not at all clear as to the origins of the blade ? Was it from the Spanish Jinetta or did it originate in Italy Venice Genoa around the formation of the Schiavonas and did it not then transfer across the North African Pirates Coast via Algeria to Morocco?... Or did the whole thing swing the other way round... ?

Buttin never identified the Yemeni version as The Yemeni Nimcha, nor did he identify the Bedawi Nimcha or the Bedawi (Palestinian) Or am I missing something?


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

The Palastinian saif is shared for comparison with Ariel's kilij (which I hope he shares) and not to suggest that its a nimcha. As for the origin of the blade, I cannot be sure but its probably locally made.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

The Palastinian saif is shared for comparison with Ariel's kilij (which I hope he shares) and not to suggest that its a nimcha. As for the origin of the blade, I cannot be sure but its probably locally made.

Salaams A.alnakkas, I assume this is for me~ but we havent seen a kilij from ariel?? Is the Palestinian sword a derivative of one of Buttins Nimcha? Does it therefor originate from the Red Sea perhaps a Saudia variant. Is the other Nimcha with the (I)NDIA scroll work one of the Yemeni variants then modified as Bedawi..

There is a lot of detail hanging in the wind on this weapon and I wonder if it was simply a hybridised cutlass which once it hit the Zanzibar hub shattered into so many other sub types that it became uncontrollably difused.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Ibrahim; Yep, Ariel didnt show the kilij but I wanted to show him the saif to see if it have similar decoration to his kilij.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams, Shall we move the thread along and have a look at some maps ?

By no means the be all and end all of maps showing Bedouin tribal areas ~ this is a great start.
From the excellent book on Bedouin by Alan Keohane This is a must read for all enthusiasts of Bedouin and their equipment.

Perhaps other maps can be added as they appear.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Martin Lubojacky]

Just small entry: - sabers (hilts) from Yemen

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

Just small entry: - sabers (hilts) from Yemen

Salaams Martin Lubojacky] Excellent pictures of what I have already described as The Yemeni Nimcha. #64 at the thread Oman, Morocco or Zanzibar? on this forum. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zanzibar+yemen

Other less well made hilts appear which may well only be "the poor mans copy" of better made hilts you show here...The transition from Zanzibari style pommel and the variation towards cross guard Saudia style and the way in which the hilt transcends toward Karabela form are apparent in your great exhibits.

The difficult part is trying to work in which blades/hilts were imported and which were made e.g. in Hadramaut and what if any input was made by Jewish craftsmen and since much of their work is shrouded in mystery and public denial we may never get to the root of it. Hyderabad more than likely has a hand in a lot of the associated Hadramauti work but once again the outlook is foggy.

Only by comparing and weighing up all the facts and by such excellent information such as your photographs can we hope to guage the clearer picture. This helps bring to life Buttins work (and others) and further expands it...moreover it focusses the discussion on our ongoing, live, forum effort. ~Thank you.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams, Shall we move the thread along and have a look at some maps ?
By no means the be all and end all of maps showing Bedouin tribal areas ~ this is a great start.

Ya mahaba Ibrahiim, just a little help
with the involontary help of the writer "Benoist-Méchin"
he was very active in years 60 in Middle-East, he has writes the biography of Ibn Saud
extracted from one of his book, this document (in French, but with translation in English in red)
I do not pretend, that all tribes are mentioned
but at least the most importants of them
for record, my translator is issued from the tribe of "Juhainah"

regards

à +

Dom

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Dom

Ya mahaba Ibrahiim, just a little help
with the involontary help of the writer "Benoist-Méchin"
he was very active in years 60 in Middle-East, he has writes the biography of Ibn Saud
extracted from one of his book, this document (in French, but with translation in English in red)
I do not pretend, that all tribes are mentioned
but at least the most importants of them
for record, my translator is issued from the tribe of "Juhainah"

regards

à +

Dom

Salaams and welcome to you also Dom ~ Very Nice Tribal chart and exactly the sort of support and detail I hope for rolling forward. As a gentle reminder (whilst it is superb to have a full tribal map) On this occasion I am particularly focussed upon Bedouin only. Thank you for showing the map and I can already see lovely similarities in the spelling and parallel information. Please keep adding detail as you like... Shukran !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[broadaxe]

Hello all, this is super important conversation. My personal points: 1. Negev/Sinai sa'ifs do have, rarely, d-guards - sometimes of steel, sometimes even aluminum (I will post photos later on if there is interest).
2. It appears scabbards show a lot of diversity as for the external layer and design, over the wood clam - leather with metal fittings, rawhide, parchment, velvet (mostly current).
3. Blades also show great diversity, and I have some surprizes up my sleeve.
4. This particular saber looks all-beduin, but I think of Saudi origin because of the pommel recess. Could be also from the eastern shores of Sinai.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by broadaxe

Hello all, this is super important conversation. My personal points: 1. Negev/Sinai sa'ifs do have, rarely, d-guards - sometimes of steel, sometimes even aluminum (I will post photos later on if there is interest).
2. It appears scabbards show a lot of diversity as for the external layer and design, over the wood clam - leather with metal fittings, rawhide, parchment, velvet (mostly current).
3. Blades also show great diversity, and I have some surprizes up my sleeve.
4. This particular saber looks all-beduin, but I think of Saudi origin because of the pommel recess. Could be also from the eastern shores of Sinai.

There you are!!!!!
Ive been hoping you would come in on this, and I for one would really like you to detail more on these fascinating weapons. Your long established knowledge on these would really benefit this thread as an informational source in classification.

All the best,
Jim

[broadaxe]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

There you are!!!!!
Ive been hoping you would come in on this, and I for one would really like you to detail more on these fascinating weapons. Your long established knowledge on these would really benefit this thread as an informational source in classification.

All the best,
Jim

Thanks Jim, I'm always here. I was considering for a long time, the thought of making some sort of publication, but as I have a long list of obligations I tend to do it here, as posts. The bedouin sa'if is an ellusive thing to define and we can classify three groups: shashka-type, shamshir-type, and 'others' (non-standard, secondary use, reshaped).


Im with you, as I have always thought of publishing some sort of monographs on certain weapons and forms, however the research is always so constantly in flux on so many fields it has been hard to focus on one.
Like you, this has been my 'published' venue, and that is great as these are sort of living publications since they have the wonderful dimension of constant discussion and input as new evidence becomes available. What better sort of archived material could there be!
I hope you will add data on these here, and as so many archived threads this will become a most important resource for continued study.

All the best,
Jim