Keris-making criteria (?)

[Alam Shah]

Hi all,

This was given by the son of a Mahaguru. The 8 categories listed when commissioning a keris.

1. Nagaran
2. Ratna Sepurna
3. Cendrawati Suban Suban
4. Cinta Kuban Mahaladan
5. Vinaran Siran Siran
6. Sanjunan
7. Siku Sanpati
8. Sahoian Dalam Nyor

My questions are:
1) What listing is this?
2) What are the meanings of the terms?
3) What are the category implications?
4) What language is it?
Any assistance would be v. much appreciated. Thank you in advance.

[A. G. Maisey]

This is not Indonesian, nor Javanese.

Some of the words might be mispelt, for instance, "ratna sepurna" sounds to me like it should be "ratna sempurna" = "perfect gem"

Cendrawati I do not recognise, but cendrawasi is a type of bird.

There are other words that by themselves make sense, but in combination make no sense---nagaran sounds like nagara : city, realm, even country; cinta : love; siku is a 90 degree angle, or an elbow.

I rather suspect this could be some obscure dialect.

As to it being that which should be observed when commissioning a keris, well its news to me.Maybe somewhere, but not where I went to school.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I rather suspect this could be some obscure dialect..

As to it being that which should be observed when commissioning a keris, well its news to me. Maybe somewhere, but not where I went to school.

Hi Alan,

Perhaps... the words could be misspelt or a corruption of the original word. I do not know. Is there by any chance it's Krama Inggil?

I don't think that it something like a procedure to be observed per se but rather to classify/put the keris requestor/commissioner into a certain group, something like a grading system (eg. caste system)... perhap? What do you think? It's just a haunch... until the meaning is known it cannot be certain.

Source = unknown. But I was told that it is practiced in the northern Malay Peninsular.

[A. G. Maisey]

I do not recognise this as any Javanese that I know, so I showed it to two native speakers of Javanese, they do not recognise it either. I think we can be pretty certain it is not any level of Javanese. But I as I noted, as the two people I showed it to noted, and as you yourself would realise, Shahrial, there are words there that "smell" of a Malay base.

The spellings are maybe not all that important, if this is part of some verbal tradition, but I think the first thing we need to try to find out is exactly where it originates, once we know that we can work it through and with an understanding of the meaning, perhaps come close to understanding the intent.

As things stand now, I do not feel very inclined to try to guess even very vaguely what the intent might be.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But I as I noted, as the two people I showed it to noted, and as you yourself would realise, Shahrial, there are words there that "smell" of a Malay base.

Thanks Alan for the effort.
There are only 3 recognisable malay words, cinta, siku and dalam. The rest... hmmm... perhaps northern malay dialect. Have to ask around up north.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, looking more closely, you're probably right that there are only three unaltered Malay words. My problem is that I really do not speak Malay. Indonesian is a form of Malay with a lot of other words added in, and although my Indonesian is fluent, it is also not the Indonesian of an educated person, because I have never learnt the language in a formal way, that means that I don't really know when I'm using Indonesian words, and when I'm using Javanese words. However, it is no effort at all for me to check Indonesian or Javanese, because my wife of going on 40 years is from Jawa, and we use Indonesian/English/Javanese between ourselves every day, additionally both I and my wife are in daily contact with other people from Jawa, or who still live there. If I need to check something its as simple as raising my voice, or at most, making a phone call.I'll be very interested to see what you might be able to dig up on this matter.

[Alam Shah]

Hi Alan,
I reckon it would take time to gather the necessary info... kiv till more info is available.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, sure, understood.

[Alam Shah]

It seems that I may be mistaken, it might be the 8 levels of knowledge (?). Perhaps these terms are in Bahasa Kawi (?).

[A. G. Maisey]

As far as I can see these words do not make any sense in Kawi, Sanscrit, Old Javanese, or Balinese.

Individual words appear in Old Javanese, words close to these words appear, but exactly these words do not appear, and some words do not appear in any of the languages.

It was, and I understand, still is, common in Jawa for groups possessing esoteric knowledge or belief to have their own secret language to converse about these subjects. If the source of this is Javanese it is possible that the words used would not make sense to anybody outside the group to which this belongs. Similarly, if this practice existed (exists) in Jawa, then it is possible that it also existed in other parts of SE Asia.

It is entirely possible that it is not able to be understood by anybody other than an initiate into the group which originated it, and even if the actual words were translated, their sense would not be understood by anybody outside the group.

Maybe we're flogging a dead horse here.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... It is entirely possible that it is not able to be understood by anybody other than an initiate into the group which originated it, and even if the actual words were translated, their sense would not be understood by anybody outside the group.

Maybe we're flogging a dead horse here.

Ok, end of the line here. Lets move on...

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah---pity though, I don't like things that I can't understand.