Bali Keris for comment

Montino Bourbon · 15th August 2005, 05:49 AM

I just received this from Bali. Comments, please.

Mark · 15th August 2005, 04:22 PM

I am stunned. Gorgeous.

nechesh · 15th August 2005, 05:44 PM

Sweet! Beautiful pamor! My guesstimate would be late 19th-early 20th. Pinpointing dates would be fairly impossible without any provenence, but this type of blade could have come out of Bali anytime between 1880s-1930s. The sandang walikat sheath is probably made some time later and could very well be new. Nice alternating wood panel down the front. Works well with the pelet wood hilt. I don't know the name off-hand, but i really enjoy this type of dapur that has luks and then goes straight at the end of the blade. The ricikan on this keris appear very nicely executed, though i would love to see some better photos (focussed, better exposed).

Mick · 15th August 2005, 05:57 PM

The pamor on this piece is one of the staple pamors generated in Madura now a days. It is inappropiate for a Balinese blade.

That said, the pamor work is well done and shows that the people in Madura are getting better and better. The pamor could follow that centerline of the piece better (which is difficult on a piece which contains luks). It runs off of the ridge line a bit. The carving is well done, but the polishing (which would be extremely difficult with this type of pamor) is not as well done as would be expected on a Balinese blade.

If the piece was actually done in Bali, it looks like someone who learned their trade in Madura has relocxated to Bali. There are (I believe) still a few people in Bali who can still reproduce representative pieces more appropriate for the island than the piece presented.

nechesh · 15th August 2005, 06:42 PM

Well Mick, you are probably right on this one.

I guess i got lured in by what appears to me to be better than average ricikan work than i've seen on other Madurese "Bali" blades. I did notice that the finish was wrong (though the photos made that a little difficult) but thought it might have experienced some non-Balinese washings to account for that.
That being said, it is my understanding that there is nothing like this coming out of present day Bali, so if you are correct then madura would be the place. All that aside Montino, this is still a very attractive keris, regardless of it's origins. Hopefully the price you paid for it is in line with it's true age and origin.

Montino Bourbon · 15th August 2005, 06:53 PM

Nechesh said:

"i really enjoy this type of dapur that has luks and then goes straight at the end of the blade."

I actually really like that dapur; It seems very functional to me.

I got this keris through ebay at a very good price, and didn't care about age and provenance. If it's made in Madura, it's very well made; and it just 'feels' good. I also like the 'kendit' ring on the hulu.

I really appreciate the comments! I'll take better pics right away.

nechesh · 15th August 2005, 07:09 PM

Does the hilt appear older than the sheath. If the kendit ring isn't painted on with marker (i've seen that done) than at least the hilt is from Bali since i don't think such hilts are being produced by the Madurese.
I must have missed this one on eBay. But Madurese or not, the bottom line is that it feels good to you.

It does still disturb me that sellers go to great lengths to misrepresent keris like this. It is a very fine example of just what it is

and i think if these sellers gave it a chance they would find that there is a market out there for these keris if they are as well made as this one.

Montino Bourbon · 15th August 2005, 08:39 PM

Dear Nechesh; here are the close-ups of the kendit ring, where I think that I can see wood affected further out; I work with wood, and this looks genuine to me. I'm not an expert, but it looks like real wood discoloration. I guess I could look inside to see if the ring is inside, but I might have to borrow that camera that my dentist uses; how will I explain it to him?

Also a better pic of the perabots. This keris feels incredibly good 'in the hand' and also of course in the aura!

BluErf · 16th August 2005, 03:59 PM

Sometimes, after the blade passes through a few owners' hands, nobody's sure of the origins anymore. The 1st seller may have represented it correctly, but after a while, new owners probably went "...well, this is probably a Balinese keris...", and eventually, it became "...this is a Balinese keris..."

And functional or not, don't swing it at anything or anyone... It will be 'painful' for all involved...

Rick · 16th August 2005, 05:18 PM

Here's an old Bali Bondolan style ukiran made from Timoho/Pelet .
A small example at 3 1/2" long .

Montino Bourbon · 20th August 2005, 04:43 PM

"The pamor on this piece is one of the staple pamors generated in Madura now a days. It is inappropiate for a Balinese blade.

That said, the pamor work is well done and shows that the people in Madura are getting better and better. The pamor could follow that centerline of the piece better (which is difficult on a piece which contains luks). It runs off of the ridge line a bit. The carving is well done, but the polishing (which would be extremely difficult with this type of pamor) is not as well done as would be expected on a Balinese blade.

If the piece was actually done in Bali, it looks like someone who learned their trade in Madura has relocxated to Bali. There are (I believe) still a few people in Bali who can still reproduce representative pieces more appropriate for the island than the piece presented."

By Mick

Sorry to take so long to get back to this- The last time I was in Bali I visited two very noted Balinese collectors who showed me, among others, several old Balinese keris that had this same pamor, Ganggeng Kanyut. I saw different versions, and two of them were old Balinese keris. I would venture to say that this pamor, from personal experience, can indeed be found in Balinese keris.

15th August 2005, 05:49 AM	#1
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Bali Keris for comment I just received this from Bali. Comments, please. Attached Images

15th August 2005, 08:39 PM	#8
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Dear Nechesh; here are the close-ups of the kendit ring, where I think that I can see wood affected further out; I work with wood, and this looks genuine to me. I'm not an expert, but it looks like real wood discoloration. I guess I could look inside to see if the ring is inside, but I might have to borrow that camera that my dentist uses; how will I explain it to him? Also a better pic of the perabots. This keris feels incredibly good 'in the hand' and also of course in the aura! Attached Images

16th August 2005, 05:18 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Here's an old Bali Bondolan style ukiran made from Timoho/Pelet . A small example at 3 1/2" long . Attached Images

15th August 2005, 04:22 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I am stunned. Gorgeous.

15th August 2005, 05:44 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sweet! Beautiful pamor! My guesstimate would be late 19th-early 20th. Pinpointing dates would be fairly impossible without any provenence, but this type of blade could have come out of Bali anytime between 1880s-1930s. The sandang walikat sheath is probably made some time later and could very well be new. Nice alternating wood panel down the front. Works well with the pelet wood hilt. I don't know the name off-hand, but i really enjoy this type of dapur that has luks and then goes straight at the end of the blade. The ricikan on this keris appear very nicely executed, though i would love to see some better photos (focussed, better exposed).

15th August 2005, 05:57 PM	#4
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	The pamor on this piece is one of the staple pamors generated in Madura now a days. It is inappropiate for a Balinese blade. That said, the pamor work is well done and shows that the people in Madura are getting better and better. The pamor could follow that centerline of the piece better (which is difficult on a piece which contains luks). It runs off of the ridge line a bit. The carving is well done, but the polishing (which would be extremely difficult with this type of pamor) is not as well done as would be expected on a Balinese blade. If the piece was actually done in Bali, it looks like someone who learned their trade in Madura has relocxated to Bali. There are (I believe) still a few people in Bali who can still reproduce representative pieces more appropriate for the island than the piece presented.

15th August 2005, 06:42 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Mick, you are probably right on this one. I guess i got lured in by what appears to me to be better than average ricikan work than i've seen on other Madurese "Bali" blades. I did notice that the finish was wrong (though the photos made that a little difficult) but thought it might have experienced some non-Balinese washings to account for that. That being said, it is my understanding that there is nothing like this coming out of present day Bali, so if you are correct then madura would be the place. All that aside Montino, this is still a very attractive keris, regardless of it's origins. Hopefully the price you paid for it is in line with it's true age and origin.

15th August 2005, 06:53 PM	#6
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Nechesh said: "i really enjoy this type of dapur that has luks and then goes straight at the end of the blade." I actually really like that dapur; It seems very functional to me. I got this keris through ebay at a very good price, and didn't care about age and provenance. If it's made in Madura, it's very well made; and it just 'feels' good. I also like the 'kendit' ring on the hulu. I really appreciate the comments! I'll take better pics right away.

15th August 2005, 07:09 PM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Does the hilt appear older than the sheath. If the kendit ring isn't painted on with marker (i've seen that done) than at least the hilt is from Bali since i don't think such hilts are being produced by the Madurese. I must have missed this one on eBay. But Madurese or not, the bottom line is that it feels good to you. It does still disturb me that sellers go to great lengths to misrepresent keris like this. It is a very fine example of just what it is and i think if these sellers gave it a chance they would find that there is a market out there for these keris if they are as well made as this one.

16th August 2005, 03:59 PM	#9
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Sometimes, after the blade passes through a few owners' hands, nobody's sure of the origins anymore. The 1st seller may have represented it correctly, but after a while, new owners probably went "...well, this is probably a Balinese keris...", and eventually, it became "...this is a Balinese keris..." And functional or not, don't swing it at anything or anyone... It will be 'painful' for all involved...

20th August 2005, 04:43 PM	#11
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	"The pamor on this piece is one of the staple pamors generated in Madura now a days. It is inappropiate for a Balinese blade. That said, the pamor work is well done and shows that the people in Madura are getting better and better. The pamor could follow that centerline of the piece better (which is difficult on a piece which contains luks). It runs off of the ridge line a bit. The carving is well done, but the polishing (which would be extremely difficult with this type of pamor) is not as well done as would be expected on a Balinese blade. If the piece was actually done in Bali, it looks like someone who learned their trade in Madura has relocxated to Bali. There are (I believe) still a few people in Bali who can still reproduce representative pieces more appropriate for the island than the piece presented." By Mick Sorry to take so long to get back to this- The last time I was in Bali I visited two very noted Balinese collectors who showed me, among others, several old Balinese keris that had this same pamor, Ganggeng Kanyut. I saw different versions, and two of them were old Balinese keris. I would venture to say that this pamor, from personal experience, can indeed be found in Balinese keris.