Strange Knife or strange hilt...origin??

blacklacrau · 16th January 2008, 01:19 AM

I would like to have some information about the origin of this blade...african, asia??
Could any of you give me some idea as to possible age, origin, is it a tourist item…a fake…. or authentic?, etc...a old blade in a new hilt?
I would appreciate any comments or information you may have.
Thanks in advance for any comments.

katana · 16th January 2008, 01:21 PM

Hi blacklacrau,
Asian or SEA gets my vote .... there seems to be the remains of a central fuller...perhaps a forged fuller that did not have an 'even' depth. Suggests a re-worked larger blade or blade tip, that has been re-profiled thinning the blade and removing some of the fuller in the process(but the 'deeper' areas of the fuller remain

But the hilt looks more recent. Nice dagger

David

VANDOO · 16th January 2008, 06:53 PM

I AGREE WITH DAVID THAT THE BLADE IS LIKELY OLDER THAN THE FITTINGS. THE HORN IS AFRICAN ANTELOPE NOT SURE WHICH TYPE AS MY HORN COLLECTION IS NOT AT HAND.

I WOULD CLASSIFY THIS ITEM AS A HOME MADE OR A CUSTOM MADE KNIFE. IT IS NOT A FAKE OR FOR TOURISTS AS IT IS, LIKELY ONE OF A KIND OR IF A KNIFE MAKER MADE IT THEY WOULD BE IN VERY LIMITED PRODUCTIONAND PROBABLY NO TWO ALIKE. THE BLADE REMINDS ME OF SOME OF THE ARABIC SHORT DAGGERS, SO IT IS A CUSTOM MADE COMPOSITE KNIFE, PERHAPS MADE TO ORDER.
NOW TO SOW SOME CONFUSION

THIS IS A LARGE CATAGORY WE USUALLY DON'T COVER HERE AS WE TEND TO CONCENTRATE ON WEAPONS THAT FOLLOW THE TRADITIONAL FORMS AND TECKNIQUES OF MANUFACTURE USED BY ONE SOCIETY OR THE OTHER.
A CUSTOM MADE KNIFE OR A COMPOSITE WEAPON REGARDLESS IF IT IS HOME MADE OR MADE BY A KNIFEMAKER COULD FALL INTO SEVERAL CATEGORYS DEPENDENING ON ITS CIRCUMSTANCES. IF A MEMBER OF A TRIBE FASHONS A WEAPON USING A BUNCH OF PARTS HE MAKES A HOMEMADE COMPOSITE WEAPON, IF HE USES IT HIMSELF OR TRADES IT TO ANOTHER TRIBAL MEMBER FOR USE IT IS ETHINOGRAPHIC. IF THE SAME FELLOW MAKES UP A LOT OF THEM AND SELLS THEM TO TOURISTS DOWN AT THE CASBAH ITS A TOURIST ITEM. IF IT IS NEWLY MADE TO LOOK LIKE THE TRADITIONAL WEAPONS OF THE REGION AND SOLD AS A OLD ONE IT IS A FAKE BUT IF TRIBAL MADE IS STILL ETHINOGRAPHIC

IF SOLD AS A NEW ONE IT IS A NEW ETHINOGRAPH WEAPON. IF SOMEONE REQUESTS A KNIFE BE MADE TO HIS DESIGN IT IS A CUSTOM MADE KNIFE, SOME WILL CLASSIFY ALL KNIVES MADE BY MAKERS AS CUSTOM MADE SUCH AS LYLE AND OTHER FAMOUS MAKERS. I TEND TO LOOK AT THESE AS CUSTOM DESIGNS MADE BY THE KNIFEMAKER WHICH IF YOU ORDER ONE FROM HIM BASED ON ONE HE HAS AND HE THEN MAKES ONE FOR YOU IT IS THEN A CUSTOM KNIFE. IF I JUST BUY FROM HIS CURRENT STOCK I JUST CONSIDER IT A LYLE DESIGN HANDMADE KNIFE NOT CUSTOM. PERHAPS I AM JUST A BIT PICKY BUT THATS THE WAY I SEE IT.

AT ANY RATE I LIKE YOUR KNIFE IT APPEARS TO BE WELL MADE, FUNCTIONAL AND IS ATTRACTIVE, I WONDER WHAT THE SCABBARD LOOKED LIKE.?

RobT · 17th January 2008, 01:29 AM

Hi All,
The blade doesn't look Philippine to me but I have a gunnong with a similar tang bolster. Maybe some of the Philippine experts (especially the ones that collect gunnong) could help out here?
Sincerely,
RobT

Battara · 17th January 2008, 05:49 AM

Well, actually, I don't see much PI in it. The tang bolster does not "smell" PI to me either. I agree with everyone else, although there is one other slight possibility - India (recent).

Robert · 17th January 2008, 08:47 AM

The decorations and construction of the butt cap definitely look mid 20th century Indian to me. I have a cane and have had a couple of other swords that have had very similar decorations to the ones on this knife. I could post pictures of the cane handle if you would like but the swords are no longer in my possession. IMHO I would guess the age of construction to be mid 20th century but as stated before I think the blade could possible be older and cut down from a larger blade. Still a very nice and interesting weapon.

Robert

Jim McDougall · 18th January 2008, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I AGREE WITH DAVID THAT THE BLADE IS LIKELY OLDER THAN THE FITTINGS. THE HORN IS AFRICAN ANTELOPE NOT SURE WHICH TYPE AS MY HORN COLLECTION IS NOT AT HAND.

I WOULD CLASSIFY THIS ITEM AS A HOME MADE OR A CUSTOM MADE KNIFE. IT IS NOT A FAKE OR FOR TOURISTS AS IT IS, LIKELY ONE OF A KIND OR IF A KNIFE MAKER MADE IT THEY WOULD BE IN VERY LIMITED PRODUCTIONAND PROBABLY NO TWO ALIKE. THE BLADE REMINDS ME OF SOME OF THE ARABIC SHORT DAGGERS, SO IT IS A CUSTOM MADE COMPOSITE KNIFE, PERHAPS MADE TO ORDER.
NOW TO SOW SOME CONFUSION

THIS IS A LARGE CATAGORY WE USUALLY DON'T COVER HERE AS WE TEND TO CONCENTRATE ON WEAPONS THAT FOLLOW THE TRADITIONAL FORMS AND TECKNIQUES OF MANUFACTURE USED BY ONE SOCIETY OR THE OTHER.
A CUSTOM MADE KNIFE OR A COMPOSITE WEAPON REGARDLESS IF IT IS HOME MADE OR MADE BY A KNIFEMAKER COULD FALL INTO SEVERAL CATEGORYS DEPENDENING ON ITS CIRCUMSTANCES. IF A MEMBER OF A TRIBE FASHONS A WEAPON USING A BUNCH OF PARTS HE MAKES A HOMEMADE COMPOSITE WEAPON, IF HE USES IT HIMSELF OR TRADES IT TO ANOTHER TRIBAL MEMBER FOR USE IT IS ETHINOGRAPHIC. IF THE SAME FELLOW MAKES UP A LOT OF THEM AND SELLS THEM TO TOURISTS DOWN AT THE CASBAH ITS A TOURIST ITEM. IF IT IS NEWLY MADE TO LOOK LIKE THE TRADITIONAL WEAPONS OF THE REGION AND SOLD AS A OLD ONE IT IS A FAKE BUT IF TRIBAL MADE IS STILL ETHINOGRAPHIC

IF SOLD AS A NEW ONE IT IS A NEW ETHINOGRAPH WEAPON. IF SOMEONE REQUESTS A KNIFE BE MADE TO HIS DESIGN IT IS A CUSTOM MADE KNIFE, SOME WILL CLASSIFY ALL KNIVES MADE BY MAKERS AS CUSTOM MADE SUCH AS LYLE AND OTHER FAMOUS MAKERS. I TEND TO LOOK AT THESE AS CUSTOM DESIGNS MADE BY THE KNIFEMAKER WHICH IF YOU ORDER ONE FROM HIM BASED ON ONE HE HAS AND HE THEN MAKES ONE FOR YOU IT IS THEN A CUSTOM KNIFE. IF I JUST BUY FROM HIS CURRENT STOCK I JUST CONSIDER IT A LYLE DESIGN HANDMADE KNIFE NOT CUSTOM. PERHAPS I AM JUST A BIT PICKY BUT THATS THE WAY I SEE IT.

AT ANY RATE I LIKE YOUR KNIFE IT APPEARS TO BE WELL MADE, FUNCTIONAL AND IS ATTRACTIVE, I WONDER WHAT THE SCABBARD LOOKED LIKE.?

Very well versed and intriguing analysis of this conundrum Vandoo!

I agree that often it is difficult to properly categorize weapons, especially of course 'ethnographic' as these do not follow regulations or 'patterns' out of books. I think your approach is probably the most reasonable application I have heard and wanted to thank you for including it here.

This is indeed a very attractive knife, and I always find the experienced observations of those posting on these elusive identifications most interesting. It seems that commercialism pretty much negates most of our standard methods of identification with many of such examples, though they remain appealing and typically functional in thier own right.

All the best,
Jim

blacklacrau · 22nd January 2008, 10:32 AM

I saw a weapon of indian sadhu that is called "Sadhu Horn" (translation) done with horn of black antelope where caps was very similar to these. Somebody knows? some similarity?
Can´t the blade be from a spear?

Many thanks for the informations...a lot!

16th January 2008, 01:19 AM	#1
blacklacrau Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Portugal Posts: 50	Strange Knife or strange hilt...origin?? I would like to have some information about the origin of this blade...african, asia?? Could any of you give me some idea as to possible age, origin, is it a tourist item…a fake…. or authentic?, etc...a old blade in a new hilt? I would appreciate any comments or information you may have. Thanks in advance for any comments. Attached Images

17th January 2008, 01:29 AM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	Philippine Blade? Hi All, The blade doesn't look Philippine to me but I have a gunnong with a similar tang bolster. Maybe some of the Philippine experts (especially the ones that collect gunnong) could help out here? Sincerely, RobT

16th January 2008, 01:21 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi blacklacrau, Asian or SEA gets my vote .... there seems to be the remains of a central fuller...perhaps a forged fuller that did not have an 'even' depth. Suggests a re-worked larger blade or blade tip, that has been re-profiled thinning the blade and removing some of the fuller in the process(but the 'deeper' areas of the fuller remain But the hilt looks more recent. Nice dagger David

16th January 2008, 06:53 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE WITH DAVID THAT THE BLADE IS LIKELY OLDER THAN THE FITTINGS. THE HORN IS AFRICAN ANTELOPE NOT SURE WHICH TYPE AS MY HORN COLLECTION IS NOT AT HAND. I WOULD CLASSIFY THIS ITEM AS A HOME MADE OR A CUSTOM MADE KNIFE. IT IS NOT A FAKE OR FOR TOURISTS AS IT IS, LIKELY ONE OF A KIND OR IF A KNIFE MAKER MADE IT THEY WOULD BE IN VERY LIMITED PRODUCTIONAND PROBABLY NO TWO ALIKE. THE BLADE REMINDS ME OF SOME OF THE ARABIC SHORT DAGGERS, SO IT IS A CUSTOM MADE COMPOSITE KNIFE, PERHAPS MADE TO ORDER. NOW TO SOW SOME CONFUSION THIS IS A LARGE CATAGORY WE USUALLY DON'T COVER HERE AS WE TEND TO CONCENTRATE ON WEAPONS THAT FOLLOW THE TRADITIONAL FORMS AND TECKNIQUES OF MANUFACTURE USED BY ONE SOCIETY OR THE OTHER. A CUSTOM MADE KNIFE OR A COMPOSITE WEAPON REGARDLESS IF IT IS HOME MADE OR MADE BY A KNIFEMAKER COULD FALL INTO SEVERAL CATEGORYS DEPENDENING ON ITS CIRCUMSTANCES. IF A MEMBER OF A TRIBE FASHONS A WEAPON USING A BUNCH OF PARTS HE MAKES A HOMEMADE COMPOSITE WEAPON, IF HE USES IT HIMSELF OR TRADES IT TO ANOTHER TRIBAL MEMBER FOR USE IT IS ETHINOGRAPHIC. IF THE SAME FELLOW MAKES UP A LOT OF THEM AND SELLS THEM TO TOURISTS DOWN AT THE CASBAH ITS A TOURIST ITEM. IF IT IS NEWLY MADE TO LOOK LIKE THE TRADITIONAL WEAPONS OF THE REGION AND SOLD AS A OLD ONE IT IS A FAKE BUT IF TRIBAL MADE IS STILL ETHINOGRAPHIC IF SOLD AS A NEW ONE IT IS A NEW ETHINOGRAPH WEAPON. IF SOMEONE REQUESTS A KNIFE BE MADE TO HIS DESIGN IT IS A CUSTOM MADE KNIFE, SOME WILL CLASSIFY ALL KNIVES MADE BY MAKERS AS CUSTOM MADE SUCH AS LYLE AND OTHER FAMOUS MAKERS. I TEND TO LOOK AT THESE AS CUSTOM DESIGNS MADE BY THE KNIFEMAKER WHICH IF YOU ORDER ONE FROM HIM BASED ON ONE HE HAS AND HE THEN MAKES ONE FOR YOU IT IS THEN A CUSTOM KNIFE. IF I JUST BUY FROM HIS CURRENT STOCK I JUST CONSIDER IT A LYLE DESIGN HANDMADE KNIFE NOT CUSTOM. PERHAPS I AM JUST A BIT PICKY BUT THATS THE WAY I SEE IT. AT ANY RATE I LIKE YOUR KNIFE IT APPEARS TO BE WELL MADE, FUNCTIONAL AND IS ATTRACTIVE, I WONDER WHAT THE SCABBARD LOOKED LIKE.?

17th January 2008, 05:49 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Well, actually, I don't see much PI in it. The tang bolster does not "smell" PI to me either. I agree with everyone else, although there is one other slight possibility - India (recent).

17th January 2008, 08:47 AM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	The decorations and construction of the butt cap definitely look mid 20th century Indian to me. I have a cane and have had a couple of other swords that have had very similar decorations to the ones on this knife. I could post pictures of the cane handle if you would like but the swords are no longer in my possession. IMHO I would guess the age of construction to be mid 20th century but as stated before I think the blade could possible be older and cut down from a larger blade. Still a very nice and interesting weapon. Robert

22nd January 2008, 10:32 AM	#8
blacklacrau Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Portugal Posts: 50	I saw a weapon of indian sadhu that is called "Sadhu Horn" (translation) done with horn of black antelope where caps was very similar to these. Somebody knows? some similarity? Can´t the blade be from a spear? Many thanks for the informations...a lot!