keris in amsterdam museum

tuancd · 24th April 2005, 05:56 PM

For those who like it (sorry for the poor picture quality) both side of the Knaud kriss and a famous handle.
Knaud's kriss is dated from the beginning of the 14th century...has been lost and found back in a drawer...

nechesh · 24th April 2005, 07:16 PM

Wow!!! Thanks so much. I had no idea that this important keris had been found again. Of course, the idea that it could have ever been pushed into the back of some museum storeroom draw is just plain nuts! Perhaps more research can now be done on this piece. I have heard that some experts have suggested some doubt to it's reported aged.

tuancd · 24th April 2005, 07:38 PM

According David van Duuren
"it's a present from a javanese prince to the dutch physician Charles Knaud in the end of the 19th century. It is dated, engraved in the iron, 1264 (i.e. 1324 Christian Era) but of course it can have engraved later on."
For sure, the shrine of Candi Suku is from the 15th, so we have at least this thread to go with...

nechesh · 25th April 2005, 12:36 PM

Does anyone know know the other metals involved here? Is it a low quality gold on one side and silver on the other? Is there any more info on the hows and whys of this gift to Dr. Knaud. I have only read very vague commentary on this blade. Though it is obviously an important keris i have some doubt as to the engraved date as a date of origin.

tom hyle · 25th April 2005, 03:50 PM

Perhaps the overlay is newer than the blade?

Rick · 25th April 2005, 05:58 PM

[QUOTE=nechesh]Does anyone know know the other metals involved here? Is it a low quality gold on one side and silver on the other? [QUOTE]

Could be a lighting situation , note the base metal has the same hue as the overlay .

Henk · 25th April 2005, 07:22 PM

I cann't tell anything about the metalls used on this keris.
But I read an article about the rediscovery of this keris.

There is a dentist in the middle of the Netherlands who had the keris put away in the safe in the bank. This dentist is a member of the Knaud family.
Once he had a friend in his chair who happened to be a keriscollector. They talked about keris and collecting and the subject moved to the Knaud keris. The friend thought it was a strange coincedence that his friend and dentist had the name Knaud. The dentist told him that the Knaud keris wasn't lost but that he had put it in the safe and that he owned the keris. With a few friends this collector made an appointment with the dentist, not for their teeth, but to see the Knaud keris. The dentist demanded that the knowledge that he was the owner of the keris and that the keris was in his possession should kept a secret. When this select group saw the keris they could convince the dentist that he should contact David van Duuren, the conservator of the KIT. The dentist decided to contact him and the pictures are the proof of it.

Battara · 25th April 2005, 08:31 PM

I would guess that the overlay is silver. Gold would have a better sheen and in the second picture there are places that are brownish-black, indicative of tarnish. So very glad this was found. Thanks for sharing.

BTW - Tuancd, like your avatar.

nechesh · 25th April 2005, 11:40 PM

Rick, i did notice the overall color shift on the "gold' side and you are probably right.
Tom, i think your suggestion on the overlay is certainly a possibility. I do find that dating this keris by the date on the keris itself is problematic at best.
Henk, thanks for the added info. Makes more sense than the keris being lost in the museum's back room. I would still like to hear more about this keris from the time of collection. It is certainly an extraordinary blade regardless of it's date of origin. It would be interesting to know what service the good doctor performed for the prince to receive it.

nechesh · 25th April 2005, 11:50 PM

I've been to this site before, but it seems to have been recently updated. According to the info here the overlays are copper. The article also address a couple of my questions including why the keris was presented and also suggests the possiblity that the keris might be older than the overlay, as Tom suggests.
http://old.blades.free.fr/keris/intr...igin/knaud.htm

tuancd · 26th April 2005, 11:01 AM

Yes it's copper on both sides. As I said, I'm sorry for the quality and that include the color. I had to make the pictures through the glass and with the fixed lights of the museum.
I have now a better camera and will try to bring back some better pictures next time I go there.

And for Battara, yours not bad too.

here are larger pictures

Battara · 26th April 2005, 02:09 PM

Thank you soooo much Tuancd for the pics. Beautiful piece!

Kiai Carita · 26th April 2005, 02:49 PM

Helo everyone, I'm new in this forum -realy happy to see the famous Knaud keris. It seems that this keris is a Jalak Sangu Tumpeng keris which has been given sinarasah emas with the date depicted in the Javanese candra-sengkala. Traditionally people would sometimes give a gold overlay on to their keris to commemorate some victory or to show their respect to the blade. The method is called sinarasah emas and it is usually in gold. A candra sengkala is a poetic / visual narrative riddle which hides the year of the making of the candra-sengkala in the poem / illustration. Natural things have symbolic numerical value, so a man is x, the moon is y, a naga is z, and so on. Javanese memory has the oldest keris coming from the time of the Gods and the oldest mortal keris come from the times of the Buddhist kingdoms of the Syailendra dinasty in the 7'th century. As to the Knaud keris it is definitely not a Buddha keris because it has double sogokan.

I hope this post might be useful.

Kiai Carita.

Henk · 26th April 2005, 07:01 PM

I found the article again in my cupboard. It tells also the material of the metall that overlays the keris. Copper. No gold and no silver.

Nechesh,

The family legend tells that Charles Knaud studied by a doekoen on Java. He became a complete medicin man and was very famous as the white doekoen.
He was so famous that when the heir of the throne of a javanese royal family became ill, the Sultan demanded him to the palace. Knaud came and saw that the prince was ill due the goena goena, the black magic. Knaud cured the prince and the sultan took Knaud to the room where the heirlooms of the royal family were kept. The sultan gave Knaud the most oldest and precious pusaka, the Knaud keris.

That's the story Nechesh. So study hard and cure everybody you meet. If they like it or not. Who knows someday

Kiai Carita · 26th April 2005, 08:13 PM

If the covering is copper it is unusual. As that the keris was the oldest and most precious in the gedong pusaka of the keraton, hm, nice story but unlikely to be true. As the keris has two sogokan it must have been made after the sogokan was incorporated in to the form of the keris so it could not have been the oldest keris in the kraton.

24th April 2005, 05:56 PM	#1
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	keris in amsterdam museum For those who like it (sorry for the poor picture quality) both side of the Knaud kriss and a famous handle. Knaud's kriss is dated from the beginning of the 14th century...has been lost and found back in a drawer... Attached Images

26th April 2005, 11:01 AM	#11
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Yes it's copper on both sides. As I said, I'm sorry for the quality and that include the color. I had to make the pictures through the glass and with the fixed lights of the museum. I have now a better camera and will try to bring back some better pictures next time I go there. And for Battara, yours not bad too. here are larger pictures Attached Images

26th April 2005, 02:49 PM	#13
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	the Knaud Keris Helo everyone, I'm new in this forum -realy happy to see the famous Knaud keris. It seems that this keris is a Jalak Sangu Tumpeng keris which has been given sinarasah emas with the date depicted in the Javanese candra-sengkala. Traditionally people would sometimes give a gold overlay on to their keris to commemorate some victory or to show their respect to the blade. The method is called sinarasah emas and it is usually in gold. A candra sengkala is a poetic / visual narrative riddle which hides the year of the making of the candra-sengkala in the poem / illustration. Natural things have symbolic numerical value, so a man is x, the moon is y, a naga is z, and so on. Javanese memory has the oldest keris coming from the time of the Gods and the oldest mortal keris come from the times of the Buddhist kingdoms of the Syailendra dinasty in the 7'th century. As to the Knaud keris it is definitely not a Buddha keris because it has double sogokan. I hope this post might be useful. Kiai Carita.

26th April 2005, 08:13 PM	#15
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Oldest keris in the Kraton? If the covering is copper it is unusual. As that the keris was the oldest and most precious in the gedong pusaka of the keraton, hm, nice story but unlikely to be true. As the keris has two sogokan it must have been made after the sogokan was incorporated in to the form of the keris so it could not have been the oldest keris in the kraton.

24th April 2005, 07:16 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Wow!!! Thanks so much. I had no idea that this important keris had been found again. Of course, the idea that it could have ever been pushed into the back of some museum storeroom draw is just plain nuts! Perhaps more research can now be done on this piece. I have heard that some experts have suggested some doubt to it's reported aged.

24th April 2005, 07:38 PM	#3
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	According David van Duuren "it's a present from a javanese prince to the dutch physician Charles Knaud in the end of the 19th century. It is dated, engraved in the iron, 1264 (i.e. 1324 Christian Era) but of course it can have engraved later on." For sure, the shrine of Candi Suku is from the 15th, so we have at least this thread to go with...

25th April 2005, 12:36 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Does anyone know know the other metals involved here? Is it a low quality gold on one side and silver on the other? Is there any more info on the hows and whys of this gift to Dr. Knaud. I have only read very vague commentary on this blade. Though it is obviously an important keris i have some doubt as to the engraved date as a date of origin.

25th April 2005, 03:50 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Perhaps the overlay is newer than the blade?

25th April 2005, 05:58 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	[QUOTE=nechesh]Does anyone know know the other metals involved here? Is it a low quality gold on one side and silver on the other? [QUOTE] Could be a lighting situation , note the base metal has the same hue as the overlay .

25th April 2005, 07:22 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I cann't tell anything about the metalls used on this keris. But I read an article about the rediscovery of this keris. There is a dentist in the middle of the Netherlands who had the keris put away in the safe in the bank. This dentist is a member of the Knaud family. Once he had a friend in his chair who happened to be a keriscollector. They talked about keris and collecting and the subject moved to the Knaud keris. The friend thought it was a strange coincedence that his friend and dentist had the name Knaud. The dentist told him that the Knaud keris wasn't lost but that he had put it in the safe and that he owned the keris. With a few friends this collector made an appointment with the dentist, not for their teeth, but to see the Knaud keris. The dentist demanded that the knowledge that he was the owner of the keris and that the keris was in his possession should kept a secret. When this select group saw the keris they could convince the dentist that he should contact David van Duuren, the conservator of the KIT. The dentist decided to contact him and the pictures are the proof of it.

25th April 2005, 08:31 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I would guess that the overlay is silver. Gold would have a better sheen and in the second picture there are places that are brownish-black, indicative of tarnish. So very glad this was found. Thanks for sharing. BTW - Tuancd, like your avatar.

25th April 2005, 11:40 PM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Rick, i did notice the overall color shift on the "gold' side and you are probably right. Tom, i think your suggestion on the overlay is certainly a possibility. I do find that dating this keris by the date on the keris itself is problematic at best. Henk, thanks for the added info. Makes more sense than the keris being lost in the museum's back room. I would still like to hear more about this keris from the time of collection. It is certainly an extraordinary blade regardless of it's date of origin. It would be interesting to know what service the good doctor performed for the prince to receive it.

25th April 2005, 11:50 PM	#10
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I've been to this site before, but it seems to have been recently updated. According to the info here the overlays are copper. The article also address a couple of my questions including why the keris was presented and also suggests the possiblity that the keris might be older than the overlay, as Tom suggests. http://old.blades.free.fr/keris/intr...igin/knaud.htm

26th April 2005, 02:09 PM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Thank you soooo much Tuancd for the pics. Beautiful piece!

26th April 2005, 07:01 PM	#14
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I found the article again in my cupboard. It tells also the material of the metall that overlays the keris. Copper. No gold and no silver. Nechesh, The family legend tells that Charles Knaud studied by a doekoen on Java. He became a complete medicin man and was very famous as the white doekoen. He was so famous that when the heir of the throne of a javanese royal family became ill, the Sultan demanded him to the palace. Knaud came and saw that the prince was ill due the goena goena, the black magic. Knaud cured the prince and the sultan took Knaud to the room where the heirlooms of the royal family were kept. The sultan gave Knaud the most oldest and precious pusaka, the Knaud keris. That's the story Nechesh. So study hard and cure everybody you meet. If they like it or not. Who knows someday