Battered kris

Emanuel · 14th October 2007, 01:46 AM

Hello,

I just got a kris from the bay. I had been looking for one but prices have gone up the last couple of months. This one was cheap and although it is quite battered it looks like it has lots of character.

It is 25.5" overall with a 22" blade. From the sellers pics it looks like the blade is reasonably thick at the base and the ricikan are in the round, not just cut out in proifile like some of the apparently newer pieces. I don't see any sign of a separate gonjo so perhaps it is post-1930.
The ricikan appear intact and the baca-baca are both in place. The blade has several nicks - one of which is quite large - towards the upper 1/3, but what's strange is that they are on what would be the back edge of the sword.

The hilt seems to be in shambles and will require some work. The scabbard has seen better days but only two brass rings are missing, and it is serviceable.

I'm thinking this'll be a fun restoration project.

Comments and thoughts of any kind would be most appreciated.
Emanuel

Henk · 14th October 2007, 10:42 AM

Hello Emanuel,

I certainly think this is a very nice restoration project.

Remove the baca-baca and the hilt. You can remove the rust with vinegar and give the blade an etch with it. That can give quite a surprise.

Clean the scabbard and polish it with a cloth and oil. Replace the missing brass rings and rewind the hilt with new strings of cloth. Looking to your pictures the original cover of the hilt is cloth. Maybe some more knowledgeable members can give you a better advice. But I would do it in this way.

Nice project, you will be bussy this winter.

Flavio · 14th October 2007, 12:32 PM

Hello Emanuel,

yes it's an interestins restoration project to do my yourself or by someone here in the forum.... (not me at all!!!

). Good work!

kai · 15th October 2007, 01:21 AM

Hello Emanuel,

You'll also have to carve a new pommel (now missing).

Please keep us posted about the progress - will be nice to see this blade etched!

Regards,
Kai

Emanuel · 15th October 2007, 02:43 AM

Thanks Henk and Flavio. Kai, which type of pommel do you think would be more appropriate, a cocatua or a horse hoof.
Do you have any indication as to which tribe this kris might be?

Thanks,
Emanuel

Henk · 15th October 2007, 11:01 AM

Emanuel,

Maybe Kai is right and you need to carve a new pommel. The hilt does look a bit tiny on the picture comparing to the blade. On the other hand, I have a moro kris with such a hiltshape that is covered with woven ratan bands. The lengt of that hilt fits exactly in my hand.

kai · 15th October 2007, 02:00 PM

Hello Emanuel,

Could you show a pic of the end of the hilt?

Quote:

Do you have any indication as to which tribe this kris might be?

The scabbard is typical for Maguindanao. The blade may be Sulu (not sure since the pics are taken at an angle). Obviously, many Sulu blades got traded and ended up in Maguindanao fittings.

Quote:

Kai, which type of pommel do you think would be more appropriate, a cocatua or a horse hoof.

I think that depends on you: Since any kris is an unique piece, the owner decides what he likes best (and can afford or is allowed to wear by tradition).

I'd guess that this kris used to have a kakatua pommel (bent asang-asang extensions, size and form of grip) and that also would be probably the most often seen hilt type. There are several kakatua varieties associated with Maguindanao pieces though.

The hilt Henk showed is also very commonly seen with Maguindanao kris; it's also the most easiest to reproduce. You can probably live with just carving the end piece and fitting it to the present grip. The braided/woven jute seems to be beyond rescue. (Make sure to store the remains for future reference though!)

Since trade was extensive you could choose just about any Moro kris hilt type and go with it but I'd probably avoid more localized types like typical Sulu horse hoof pommel, etc.

Regards,
Kai

Emanuel · 15th October 2007, 08:06 PM

Thank you for the picture Henk, I must say that I like this type of hilt. It's simple and elegant I think.

Kai, I have not received the kris yet, but I will take and post new pics as soon as I get it. If the hilt has a recessed part on the end to fit a pommel into then I will likely carve a new one. Otherwise I don't wuite know how I would attach the pommel - gluing it is not an attractive option. If it is just flat like Henk's then I may just leave it and redo the cloth wrapping.

Best regards,
Emanuel

Emanuel · 20th January 2008, 03:18 AM

Well, I've had the kris for a while now and as soon as I got it I realized that the hilt had been pretty much splits into fragments. So I've been playing around with carving a brand new one. I understand that banati wood is very often used on kris, but I haven't been able to find any information on this essence. Does anyone know the scientific or international name for this type of wood?
I could always use other slightly different but similar woods more readily accessible.

Thanks,
Emanuel

Emanuel · 20th January 2008, 03:49 PM

I just read about santol and langka woods being used in absence of banati. Is banati also known as ramin, and endangered essence?

Battara · 21st January 2008, 02:32 AM

Banati is not a species of wood but the root wood or burl. That being said, most of the wood used was narra (inside part red and outside part brown). Narra is now endangered. I may have a hilt coming in soon if you are interested.

Emanuel · 21st January 2008, 03:11 AM

Ah I see, thanks for the clarification Battara! I'd still like to try my hand at carving a hilt and pommel. Since it's endangered, I'd rather use another type of wood. What would be a good alternative?

Battara · 21st January 2008, 07:37 AM

I would recommend either padouk (a cousin to narra and is an orange-red) or a burled walnut. Burled padouk is hard to find.

Mabuting Kapilaran!

PS - the blade looks Maguoindanao and the scabbard bands are probably white metal under the type opf patina that I see.

Emanuel · 21st January 2008, 03:50 PM

Thanks for the info and the wishes! I've found an exotic woods dealer close (relatively) by and he has burled padauk in stock. I will visit the shop in the coming weeks and see how it goes.
Burled walnut looks pretty good too.

Battara · 22nd January 2008, 04:24 AM

BURLED PADOUK!?!

Please email me the name and address!

Emanuel · 22nd January 2008, 04:33 AM

Sorry, no good! I went to the shop today, the man had it on his website but not actually in stock. Said he hadn't seen a good piece in years. I did get a piece of padauk, though, it's a nice wood but very heavy.

Battara · 22nd January 2008, 11:34 PM

And Manolo, please wear a mask when sanding this - padouk saw dust is dangerous and I know of someone who inhaled a bunch of it and died.

Yes it is heavy and will stain permenantly any clothing or fabric it touches.

Emanuel · 23rd January 2008, 01:24 AM

Thanks for the warning! The dust must be very fine if it can affect the lungs like that. I'll take all necessary precautions.

Battara · 23rd January 2008, 02:09 AM

I don't know about fine but the wood has silica in it which can make like little shards of glass in the lungs. Also, the silica in the very hard wood will dull your tools.

14th October 2007, 01:46 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Battered kris Hello, I just got a kris from the bay. I had been looking for one but prices have gone up the last couple of months. This one was cheap and although it is quite battered it looks like it has lots of character. It is 25.5" overall with a 22" blade. From the sellers pics it looks like the blade is reasonably thick at the base and the ricikan are in the round, not just cut out in proifile like some of the apparently newer pieces. I don't see any sign of a separate gonjo so perhaps it is post-1930. The ricikan appear intact and the baca-baca are both in place. The blade has several nicks - one of which is quite large - towards the upper 1/3, but what's strange is that they are on what would be the back edge of the sword. The hilt seems to be in shambles and will require some work. The scabbard has seen better days but only two brass rings are missing, and it is serviceable. I'm thinking this'll be a fun restoration project. Comments and thoughts of any kind would be most appreciated. Emanuel Attached Images Last edited by Manolo; 14th October 2007 at 02:29 AM.

15th October 2007, 11:01 AM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Emanuel, Maybe Kai is right and you need to carve a new pommel. The hilt does look a bit tiny on the picture comparing to the blade. On the other hand, I have a moro kris with such a hiltshape that is covered with woven ratan bands. The lengt of that hilt fits exactly in my hand. Attached Images

14th October 2007, 10:42 AM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Hello Emanuel, I certainly think this is a very nice restoration project. Remove the baca-baca and the hilt. You can remove the rust with vinegar and give the blade an etch with it. That can give quite a surprise. Clean the scabbard and polish it with a cloth and oil. Replace the missing brass rings and rewind the hilt with new strings of cloth. Looking to your pictures the original cover of the hilt is cloth. Maybe some more knowledgeable members can give you a better advice. But I would do it in this way. Nice project, you will be bussy this winter.

14th October 2007, 12:32 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Emanuel, yes it's an interestins restoration project to do my yourself or by someone here in the forum.... (not me at all!!! ). Good work!

15th October 2007, 01:21 AM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Emanuel, You'll also have to carve a new pommel (now missing). Please keep us posted about the progress - will be nice to see this blade etched! Regards, Kai

15th October 2007, 02:43 AM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks Henk and Flavio. Kai, which type of pommel do you think would be more appropriate, a cocatua or a horse hoof. Do you have any indication as to which tribe this kris might be? Thanks, Emanuel

15th October 2007, 08:06 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thank you for the picture Henk, I must say that I like this type of hilt. It's simple and elegant I think. Kai, I have not received the kris yet, but I will take and post new pics as soon as I get it. If the hilt has a recessed part on the end to fit a pommel into then I will likely carve a new one. Otherwise I don't wuite know how I would attach the pommel - gluing it is not an attractive option. If it is just flat like Henk's then I may just leave it and redo the cloth wrapping. Best regards, Emanuel

20th January 2008, 03:18 AM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Well, I've had the kris for a while now and as soon as I got it I realized that the hilt had been pretty much splits into fragments. So I've been playing around with carving a brand new one. I understand that banati wood is very often used on kris, but I haven't been able to find any information on this essence. Does anyone know the scientific or international name for this type of wood? I could always use other slightly different but similar woods more readily accessible. Thanks, Emanuel

20th January 2008, 03:49 PM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I just read about santol and langka woods being used in absence of banati. Is banati also known as ramin, and endangered essence?

21st January 2008, 02:32 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Banati is not a species of wood but the root wood or burl. That being said, most of the wood used was narra (inside part red and outside part brown). Narra is now endangered. I may have a hilt coming in soon if you are interested.

21st January 2008, 03:11 AM	#12
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Ah I see, thanks for the clarification Battara! I'd still like to try my hand at carving a hilt and pommel. Since it's endangered, I'd rather use another type of wood. What would be a good alternative?

21st January 2008, 07:37 AM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	I would recommend either padouk (a cousin to narra and is an orange-red) or a burled walnut. Burled padouk is hard to find. Mabuting Kapilaran! PS - the blade looks Maguoindanao and the scabbard bands are probably white metal under the type opf patina that I see.

21st January 2008, 03:50 PM	#14
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks for the info and the wishes! I've found an exotic woods dealer close (relatively) by and he has burled padauk in stock. I will visit the shop in the coming weeks and see how it goes. Burled walnut looks pretty good too.

22nd January 2008, 04:24 AM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	BURLED PADOUK!?! Please email me the name and address!

22nd January 2008, 04:33 AM	#16
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Sorry, no good! I went to the shop today, the man had it on his website but not actually in stock. Said he hadn't seen a good piece in years. I did get a piece of padauk, though, it's a nice wood but very heavy.

22nd January 2008, 11:34 PM	#17
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	And Manolo, please wear a mask when sanding this - padouk saw dust is dangerous and I know of someone who inhaled a bunch of it and died. Yes it is heavy and will stain permenantly any clothing or fabric it touches.

23rd January 2008, 01:24 AM	#18
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks for the warning! The dust must be very fine if it can affect the lungs like that. I'll take all necessary precautions.

23rd January 2008, 02:09 AM	#19
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	I don't know about fine but the wood has silica in it which can make like little shards of glass in the lungs. Also, the silica in the very hard wood will dull your tools.