Multi-blade daggers

ariel · 31st July 2009, 06:04 AM

I do not have a picture handy, but we all know these katars with "opening" blades or persian khandjars that separate into 3 or more blades at the end.
You know what I mean.
I have a strong suspicion that these implements have nothing to do with real fighting use. Their construction absolutely prevents stabbing and, largely, slashing as well. They are, IMHO, bazaar creations for European tourists.
Am I wrong?

Rich · 31st July 2009, 10:41 AM

My VERY limited experience with these forms is that they were more parrying (sp?) weapons than anything else. Besides the split blade Katar you mention, several main gauche are likewise constructed. Probably other examples, but those are all that come to mind this early in the morning.

Rich S

Gavin Nugent · 31st July 2009, 12:02 PM

Interesting post Ariel,

The Khandjars have been spoken of before in these pages and were passed off as "rubbish" but I am sure they have their place but wether bazaar pieces for travellers or not I don't know.
There are two examples of these in the Berman Museum of World History, both with flared piercing tips, perhaps the museum records can date them so a better idea can be gleamed about genuine age and usage.
I know I can not say with any conviction either way but I know there are also providenced swords out there with split double tips, one being in the Met Museums collection.
The Katars I cannot coment on.

Gav

kisak · 31st July 2009, 03:00 PM

The katars have always struck me as parrying weapons, in much the same vein as European trident main gauches.

Swords with split tips from Islamic regions would seem to be a reference to Zhulfiqar, and my rather uneducated guess is that any such blade would be ceremonial in nature.

I haven't seen any of the khanjars, so no comment there.

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2009, 05:36 PM

This really is an interesting topic, and brings up not only the subject of the feasability of these daggers in use, but that of the phenomenon that has become almost cliche' in the collection of ethnographic weapons- the 'tourist piece'.

It seems that many weapons of today are understandably thrown into this classification as tourism and gathering souveniers has become an ever growing global pastime. This has created huge markets for such souveniers, which obviously include fabrications of traditional weapons.
However, I am not so sure that the 'tourist' phenomenon was as heralded as presumed prior to the early years of the twentieth century, and most of the 'tourism' of the prior century was associated with the colonialism of the times in 'exotic' places.

While we always presume to consider the novelty and exotica of the natives of these colonized lands, it is interesting to consider that the natives also certainly regarded us as curious, and indeed novelties. Case in point of course with India, and the arrival of Europeans, and we have discussed many times the development of a number of thier weapons from European forms.
We know the so called Hindu basket hilt was an adaption of the more enclosed guard of European swords, placed on the Indian sword known as the khanda, and that the swordsmanship of the Europeans quite likely was impressive to the Indians. There are known to be examples of the khanda bearing European rapier blades, and of course the European trade blades that began to flourish in Indian swords were 'firangi' (loosely = foreign).

In Europe, in fencing the left hand dagger had become popularly used, not only as a secondary defense, but as a parrying weapon. Peterson describes those daggers as including later the 'rare' forms known as 'sword breakers' as well as the type which was divided longitudinally into three parts that looked like a conventional blade, but when a spring released it opened into a trident like weapon ( " Daggers and Fighting Knives of the Western World" , H.L.Peterson, N.Y.1968, p.41-42). He notes further that, "...both of these blade types were late, dating from about 1600, almost at the end of the left hand daggers popularity".

Clearly, these were innovative forms of these daggers which drew a degree of attention to the threatening demeanor of the swordsman, virtually in a manner of psychological effect. It is well established that psychological effect and almost theatrical staging is very much a component of combat.
I would imagine that these daggers, may have been seen by Indian rulers or armourers, who sought to impress by duplicating them, whether actually used or not. Indian armouries are well known for having had all manner of weapons curiosa, and many of them derived from foreign influences.

Returning to the idea that these, or for that matter, a range of weapons were created simply for tourists. In North Africa and Arabia, the souqs were commercial centers where nuetrality was established periodically with tribal conflicts abated temporarily and exchange of goods including surplus took place. This of course included weapons, taken in raids and in various states of quality or servicability. In India and the Middle East the bazaars were also commercial centers with the same type of exchanges essentially.

With the advent of tourism, in degree of course they sought souveniers, but surplus and weapons from all manner of trading and acquisition were always available in volume. In early times, in my opinion there were certainly many weapons around to be sold to tourists or tribesmen desiring weapons as well. The need for a cottage industry to fabricate weapons for the minimal numbers of souvenier seeking tourists had not yet arrived, any more than gas stations were needed on every corner for the number of cars around in the early part of the century.

I believe the triple bladed katars, were much as the European parrying daggers, novelties created by armourers to impress thier patrons, along with other weapons curiosa. Thier ability to be used was probably in degree feasible as long as the blades remained closed, but of no use when opened.
The exuberant thoughts of these blades being opened after penetration is in my opinion nonsense, and more in place with todays 'action' movie syndrome.

Any of these created for tourism would be of modern classification along with the huge industry that exists in our times for reproductions.

All best regards,
Jim

TVV · 31st July 2009, 06:19 PM

Ariel,
I am with you on the sscissor katars and the multi-bladed Persian khanjars. The reason for this is that all that I have seen seem to be of very low craftsmanship. This is especially true for those Persian three-bladed khanjars - the engraving on them tends to be very crude, and not dissimilar to that found on low quality helmets and shields.
Of course, there might be examples out there that are well made with crisp and detailed engraving, but I am yet to see one.
This only makes me think that these were not intended for use within the original culture, but were rather produced to be sold to outsiders.
Best regards,
Teodor

ariel · 1st August 2009, 01:26 PM

Teodor, thanks for moral support!
All such contraptions that I've seen, are in a very good physical shape. None have signs of aging beyond those resulting from poor maintenance. None have patination or hard black rust. All have well preserved koftgari-type decoration ( those that have it to start with).
In short, all appear to date to the 20th, or the end of the 19th century at the latest.
Well, at that time fencing with 2 blades was very much outdated. Based on that, I conclude that they were never intended for practical use.

Does anybody have truly old examples?

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2009, 08:00 PM

Me too, any old examples out there?

Sikh_soldier · 2nd August 2009, 01:48 AM

Sorry guys I do not have an old example of either,

But just to add my bit, I have handled a few scissor katars and they have always been very clumsy, usually with the mechanism either broken or weak, suprisingly though I have seen a few in the collection of some veteran collectors who not only should know better, but who believe that their practical.

I dont mean to go off topic, but what about the katars with pistols attached?

Bally

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd August 2009, 01:59 PM

One of the more refined types of the so called scissor katar can be seen in Stone page 345 fig. 432.

Oriental-Arms · 3rd August 2009, 05:41 PM

I trust Ariel refered to this type of daggers.

.

This is definitely not a top quality one as we have seen on other Persian blades but it is certainly better than the average found on the market. The blade is well forged with a central rib, good sound steel, and even the central tip is better shaped than most. Unfortunately I don't have the handle and scabbard so I can not comment on their quality.

I agree that most multi blade Persian Khanjar on the market are of very low quality and produced mainly for the souvenir market, but this one at least shows that there was a base that these souvenirs copied. (As mostly happens with other souvenirs as well).

I trust this is not a fighting weapon but rather a ceremonial one, mid to late 19 C. Much similar in quality to many Persian ceremonial blades of the period.

fernando · 3rd August 2009, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sikh_soldier

...I dont mean to go off topic, but what about the katars with pistols attached? ...

Ah, those are more serious stuff, and there are irreprehensible examples out there, with pictures within reach.
OTHH, i too beleive multi bladed katars and khindjals are not (can not be) operational stuff

.
Fernando

ariel · 3rd August 2009, 11:14 PM

Yes, Artzi, this is the one; thanks for posting it.
This one may be of much better quality than the rest, but even here the mechanics would prevent its intended usage. Imagine that the central blade, with its reinforced tip, penetrates the mail. The lateral blades would come in contact with the hard surface at an angle, and the lateral vector would just bend them out of shape ( and prevent the central blade's deeper penetration).
Must be "ceremonial", which is, in many cases just a coy word
for " tourist" or " bazaar". Quality on such pieces must have differed dramatically, akin to fake Gucci bags in Bangkok or elsewhere: from $5 mass production to a top of the line $15 :-)

Jim McDougall · 4th August 2009, 12:24 AM

This is truly an interesting interpretation of 'opening' blade, and of a form that is anything but commonly seen as far as I have known. Naturally they are represented in some references only elementally, and not as a functional or well known type of weapon.

Naturally, the term 'opening' brings to mind the much more well known spring operated anomalies in katars primarily, which open by varying means. I had not thought of multiple blades which remain in congruent position, in a blossomed fashion.
As always, Artzi astutely recognized the dilemma and came to the rescue!! Thank you Artzi.

Semantics truly are amazing, but it was fun to talk about the katars which open into three bladed weapons, and are truly intriguing in thier own right, and as seems agreed, also nonfunctional.

Best regards,
Jim

31st July 2009, 06:04 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Multi-blade daggers I do not have a picture handy, but we all know these katars with "opening" blades or persian khandjars that separate into 3 or more blades at the end. You know what I mean. I have a strong suspicion that these implements have nothing to do with real fighting use. Their construction absolutely prevents stabbing and, largely, slashing as well. They are, IMHO, bazaar creations for European tourists. Am I wrong?

31st July 2009, 12:02 PM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting posting Interesting post Ariel, The Khandjars have been spoken of before in these pages and were passed off as "rubbish" but I am sure they have their place but wether bazaar pieces for travellers or not I don't know. There are two examples of these in the Berman Museum of World History, both with flared piercing tips, perhaps the museum records can date them so a better idea can be gleamed about genuine age and usage. I know I can not say with any conviction either way but I know there are also providenced swords out there with split double tips, one being in the Met Museums collection. The Katars I cannot coment on. Gav

3rd August 2009, 05:41 PM	#11
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Persian five points khanjar I trust Ariel refered to this type of daggers. . This is definitely not a top quality one as we have seen on other Persian blades but it is certainly better than the average found on the market. The blade is well forged with a central rib, good sound steel, and even the central tip is better shaped than most. Unfortunately I don't have the handle and scabbard so I can not comment on their quality. I agree that most multi blade Persian Khanjar on the market are of very low quality and produced mainly for the souvenir market, but this one at least shows that there was a base that these souvenirs copied. (As mostly happens with other souvenirs as well). I trust this is not a fighting weapon but rather a ceremonial one, mid to late 19 C. Much similar in quality to many Persian ceremonial blades of the period.

31st July 2009, 10:41 AM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	My VERY limited experience with these forms is that they were more parrying (sp?) weapons than anything else. Besides the split blade Katar you mention, several main gauche are likewise constructed. Probably other examples, but those are all that come to mind this early in the morning. Rich S

31st July 2009, 03:00 PM	#4
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	The katars have always struck me as parrying weapons, in much the same vein as European trident main gauches. Swords with split tips from Islamic regions would seem to be a reference to Zhulfiqar, and my rather uneducated guess is that any such blade would be ceremonial in nature. I haven't seen any of the khanjars, so no comment there.

31st July 2009, 05:36 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	This really is an interesting topic, and brings up not only the subject of the feasability of these daggers in use, but that of the phenomenon that has become almost cliche' in the collection of ethnographic weapons- the 'tourist piece'. It seems that many weapons of today are understandably thrown into this classification as tourism and gathering souveniers has become an ever growing global pastime. This has created huge markets for such souveniers, which obviously include fabrications of traditional weapons. However, I am not so sure that the 'tourist' phenomenon was as heralded as presumed prior to the early years of the twentieth century, and most of the 'tourism' of the prior century was associated with the colonialism of the times in 'exotic' places. While we always presume to consider the novelty and exotica of the natives of these colonized lands, it is interesting to consider that the natives also certainly regarded us as curious, and indeed novelties. Case in point of course with India, and the arrival of Europeans, and we have discussed many times the development of a number of thier weapons from European forms. We know the so called Hindu basket hilt was an adaption of the more enclosed guard of European swords, placed on the Indian sword known as the khanda, and that the swordsmanship of the Europeans quite likely was impressive to the Indians. There are known to be examples of the khanda bearing European rapier blades, and of course the European trade blades that began to flourish in Indian swords were 'firangi' (loosely = foreign). In Europe, in fencing the left hand dagger had become popularly used, not only as a secondary defense, but as a parrying weapon. Peterson describes those daggers as including later the 'rare' forms known as 'sword breakers' as well as the type which was divided longitudinally into three parts that looked like a conventional blade, but when a spring released it opened into a trident like weapon ( " Daggers and Fighting Knives of the Western World" , H.L.Peterson, N.Y.1968, p.41-42). He notes further that, "...both of these blade types were late, dating from about 1600, almost at the end of the left hand daggers popularity". Clearly, these were innovative forms of these daggers which drew a degree of attention to the threatening demeanor of the swordsman, virtually in a manner of psychological effect. It is well established that psychological effect and almost theatrical staging is very much a component of combat. I would imagine that these daggers, may have been seen by Indian rulers or armourers, who sought to impress by duplicating them, whether actually used or not. Indian armouries are well known for having had all manner of weapons curiosa, and many of them derived from foreign influences. Returning to the idea that these, or for that matter, a range of weapons were created simply for tourists. In North Africa and Arabia, the souqs were commercial centers where nuetrality was established periodically with tribal conflicts abated temporarily and exchange of goods including surplus took place. This of course included weapons, taken in raids and in various states of quality or servicability. In India and the Middle East the bazaars were also commercial centers with the same type of exchanges essentially. With the advent of tourism, in degree of course they sought souveniers, but surplus and weapons from all manner of trading and acquisition were always available in volume. In early times, in my opinion there were certainly many weapons around to be sold to tourists or tribesmen desiring weapons as well. The need for a cottage industry to fabricate weapons for the minimal numbers of souvenier seeking tourists had not yet arrived, any more than gas stations were needed on every corner for the number of cars around in the early part of the century. I believe the triple bladed katars, were much as the European parrying daggers, novelties created by armourers to impress thier patrons, along with other weapons curiosa. Thier ability to be used was probably in degree feasible as long as the blades remained closed, but of no use when opened. The exuberant thoughts of these blades being opened after penetration is in my opinion nonsense, and more in place with todays 'action' movie syndrome. Any of these created for tourism would be of modern classification along with the huge industry that exists in our times for reproductions. All best regards, Jim

31st July 2009, 06:19 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	Ariel, I am with you on the sscissor katars and the multi-bladed Persian khanjars. The reason for this is that all that I have seen seem to be of very low craftsmanship. This is especially true for those Persian three-bladed khanjars - the engraving on them tends to be very crude, and not dissimilar to that found on low quality helmets and shields. Of course, there might be examples out there that are well made with crisp and detailed engraving, but I am yet to see one. This only makes me think that these were not intended for use within the original culture, but were rather produced to be sold to outsiders. Best regards, Teodor

1st August 2009, 01:26 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Teodor, thanks for moral support! All such contraptions that I've seen, are in a very good physical shape. None have signs of aging beyond those resulting from poor maintenance. None have patination or hard black rust. All have well preserved koftgari-type decoration ( those that have it to start with). In short, all appear to date to the 20th, or the end of the 19th century at the latest. Well, at that time fencing with 2 blades was very much outdated. Based on that, I conclude that they were never intended for practical use. Does anybody have truly old examples?

1st August 2009, 08:00 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Me too, any old examples out there?

2nd August 2009, 01:48 AM	#9
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	Sorry guys I do not have an old example of either, But just to add my bit, I have handled a few scissor katars and they have always been very clumsy, usually with the mechanism either broken or weak, suprisingly though I have seen a few in the collection of some veteran collectors who not only should know better, but who believe that their practical. I dont mean to go off topic, but what about the katars with pistols attached? Bally

2nd August 2009, 01:59 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	One of the more refined types of the so called scissor katar can be seen in Stone page 345 fig. 432.

3rd August 2009, 11:14 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, Artzi, this is the one; thanks for posting it. This one may be of much better quality than the rest, but even here the mechanics would prevent its intended usage. Imagine that the central blade, with its reinforced tip, penetrates the mail. The lateral blades would come in contact with the hard surface at an angle, and the lateral vector would just bend them out of shape ( and prevent the central blade's deeper penetration). Must be "ceremonial", which is, in many cases just a coy word for " tourist" or " bazaar". Quality on such pieces must have differed dramatically, akin to fake Gucci bags in Bangkok or elsewhere: from $5 mass production to a top of the line $15 :-)

4th August 2009, 12:24 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	This is truly an interesting interpretation of 'opening' blade, and of a form that is anything but commonly seen as far as I have known. Naturally they are represented in some references only elementally, and not as a functional or well known type of weapon. Naturally, the term 'opening' brings to mind the much more well known spring operated anomalies in katars primarily, which open by varying means. I had not thought of multiple blades which remain in congruent position, in a blossomed fashion. As always, Artzi astutely recognized the dilemma and came to the rescue!! Thank you Artzi. Semantics truly are amazing, but it was fun to talk about the katars which open into three bladed weapons, and are truly intriguing in thier own right, and as seems agreed, also nonfunctional. Best regards, Jim