Moroccan sa'if help please

[macandjenny]

Hello all,
I'm David and 'brand new' here. I also know virtually nothing about swords. I have one (see pictures) and would love it if someone could identify the blade mark. My research has the sword being given in 1813 -1816 by a particular French officer to a person who came to Australia some years later. I think it was in a house fire here some 40 years ago which may account for its condition. Any help that you could give me would be most appreciated.
Kind regards
David

[kronckew]

double post see my reply in the other one.

[Jim McDougall]

Hello David, and I'd like to welcome you aboard!!!!
Very interesting Moroccan sa'if (also of course commonly termed nimcha in our collecting parlance), especially for the unusually placed cartouche in Arabic on the blade.
These sabres were widely used in Maghrebi coastal regions from Morocco to Algiers, and it seems typically used European trade blades. It is most unusual to see a blade of this type and marked with this type of inscription in cartouche.

I am hoping our Arabic linquists will help!!

Thank you for posting this David......these sabres are extremely appealing, and this one unusual with the blade marking.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Dom]

Hi Gentlemen

what I'm seing .... is a stamp ...
stamp for blacksmith, I suppose

unfortunatly, if it's looks a little bite like letters,
it's just a design without signification

I mean for arabic readers or speakers

those stamps may be find
on tin objects
or brass coffee pot,
even in silvery
not strange to find stamp of craftsman, or blacksmith

stamp could be ;
- initials
but also design;
- "lion" for Assad Allah for instance .. famous Irako-Syrian blancksmith for blades

Rgds

à +

Dom

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Dom,
Thank you for coming in on this. Very interesting comments on this stamp, and the reference to the familiar Assad Allah stamps on many of the trade blades which became commonly used in so many regions.

Going with the provenance notes on this with reference to France and the years noted. It should be noted that these swords were particularly associated in many cases with the Ottoman corsairs (commonly termed Barbary pirates). France was engaged in considerable conflicts in Egypt and the Levant in 1798-99 with Ottoman forces, and it would not be hard to imagine that these sa'if found use in those regions, even though they are typically considered a Moroccan form. The form of hilt itself has history as early as the end of the 16th, and remained in use in the Maghreb well into the 19th century.

This sabre would seem to possibly have been a trophy from these events in these regions. It is always interesting to have some degree of provenance with these weapons as it establishes developmental bench marks for the form.

Thank you again Dom, for the help with the marking, and observations.
The example Krockew has posted seems a great deal like this one also. Has anybody seen similar stamps in blades at this location on the blade?

All the best,
Jim

[LPCA]

Bonjour, friends.

David, may i have the size of the blade only, the thickness of the back and if possible a close-up of the blade showing the fuller. The shape looks very near from one of mine.
As for the stamp, never seen this round type in maghrig craftmen markings. In fact, only Morocco should be seriously concerned, but for the barrels stamped sometimes with test and factory's marks (little square stamp of Tetouan, ...) . The stronger way may be a craftman'mark...

I shall go on searching on the way of Zanzibar...!!!

Louis-Pierre

[macandjenny]

Hello Louis-Pierre,

To try and answer your questions...

1. the length of the blade from where it attaches to the hilt (correct term?)(along a straight line so not allowing for the curve is abour 80 cms

2. The fuller is (sort of) shown in pic called "sword13" attached. It ends about 8 cms from the tip of the sword

3. The best I can do on the 'back' of the sword is the attached photo "sword12"

4. I have added another photo of the 'butt' of the sword if of any help.

Many thanks to you and all of you who are helping me.....I cannot express properly my thanks and appreciation. I love how you are so passionate about this subject (mine are French & English antiques, golf and wine....different but as long as one has a passion for something then that is fullfilling )

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Louis Pierre,
Thank you for the observations, and I'm so glad to see you posting on this.
I think you make a very good point on the touchmark often seen on gun barrels, and as you note, Morocco is of course a likely provenance. The possibility of a makers mark is well placed also it would seem. I have heard of one other instance of this type stamp on a nimcha, though have not seen it, and it was of Moroccan origin...not sure of dates.

Not sure of Zanzibar, do you think that center may be connected ? What was the French presence there like c.1800-15?

I received a PM from David, and further photos are pending, I am checking on status in our process.

All the best,
Jim

[LPCA]

hi, friends.

Thanks, David, for your answer.

Length of mine (see images 1 & 2) from guard to tip is 90cm.+/-, so it's longer, but a same blade's profile. I wonder about the black color of your hilt (seems painted...) What is it ? is that wood under this color?.

As for the marking, it seems to be as like a stamp of a craftman, not translatable and i agree with Dom.

I have the same problem with this sa¨f-nimcha made in Zanzibar for Peninsula (Oman). As you can see, it is a short & heavy blade done for maritime purpose.
It illustrates perfectly the term NIMCHA - short blade-.

I would say with prudence that usually a cavalry nimcha from Morocco has a pure long blade without any markings. i observed that difference is done by embellishments of the guard (koftghari) or of the ring on the base of the handle (silver) and of course of the material of the hilt itself (rhino horn, ...) and of the scabbard. Otherwise , they are very sober.

What is different is the use by the pirates ( bararesques ) of nimcha with foreign blades.
The pirates of the enclave of Salé (near Rabat) as well as those of Algiers, Tunis & tripoli had never have problem to obtain european blades from boats capture.
For instance, in 7 years (1609 to 1616), Algiers Regency captured 466 english ships not included the ships of others nationality.....
That explains mostly why there was not workshops in the Maghrib, but only reassembly and transformation activities. For instance, we discussed some time ago about one of my Nimcha with a shortend blade of baskethilt forged in Germany, ....
Now, i must say honestly that in Morocco (Tetouan, Fes, ....), existed workshops of forge of firearms' barrels and the same in Tunis (not in Algiers & Tripoli). So, we can guess that it would had been possible to forge blades!! Why not?. But this subject is for the moment not resolved for me.

I stop here for the moment.
See U.
Louis-Pierre

[LPCA]

Here again.
First, please be indulgent with my faults. It is not easy to write in so fast English that we think in French...

I would like to give an answer to my friend Jim.

What was the French presence there like c.1800-15?

The french Revolution (1789) were in conflict with Istanboul, so with the Ponant regencies (Algiers, Tunis & Tripoli). It increased with Bonaparte's expédition in Egypt (1798 - 1801) untill the Napoleon's fall (1815).
In 1818, the congress of Aix-la-Chapelle, european nations decided to end with regencies. In 1830, France stopped it definitively.

Best for you.
Louis-Pierre

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Louis Pierre for answering my question, and for the great perspective on this!
I am really inspired to learn more on these nimchas at this point. Its funny how one gets the impression they have it down on a certain weapon form, then realize they didnt really know as much as they thought! so I gotta get busy on more research.

Thank you David for the additional photos, nicely done!

All best regards,
Jim

[LPCA]

Hello, everybody.

Please David, would you answer my question about the hilt and its black color.... i never saw such a coloured hilt on a Nimcha....

Jim, i would like to add some comments to my last answer on french/Maghrib relations.

I gave you historical point of view.
BUT, nothing new under the sun !!, if official position was as square, trade between Marseille and Maghrib never stopped really and the Jewish trade connection between the 2 banks of the mediterranée played a key role.

At first, Tunis saw a very important decline of the corsair activities and returned in a normal maritime business.
Then, the french flag was more or less privileged with regard to that of the other nations ships of which continued to be catched
So, as often, truth is at a middle point

Friendly
Louis-Pierre.

[ward]

The handle of this nimcha is just lacquer that has been burned. You would have to strip it to find if it is horn or wood. Regarding weapons workshops in Morrocco they are there and were in some of the larger cities. The french,portugese,and spanish have all invaded sections of Morocco at one time or another. Some of these european blades yes were captured in conflict but it is more likely most came from trade.

[macandjenny]

Hi Louis-Pierre,
My apologes for the delay. I think I said in my first post that the sword was in a house fire approximately 40 years ago here in Australia. My initial logic had been, "if it is a wooden handle it would have surely suffered more damage than I can see.....so maybe it is bone/rhino horn". Not that I know what sort of grains horn material has! However, looking at the photo attached I'm now leaning towards wood. Any thoughts anyone please.
Thank you "Ward" for your info on the covering being burned lacquer. Were these handles originally lacquered??
Anyway, once again many thanks to all contributors...my appreciation.
David

[Jim McDougall]

Hi David,
In reviewing the excellent work that Louis Pierre has compiled on the nimcha, there is an 18th century example identified as Moroccan, which has similar blade form, and a stamped mark similar to yours in like location on the blade.
It would seem to further emphasize the Moroccan origin and of the correct period.
Also, in looking at the interesting style of the blade sectioning, there seems to be a particular 'stepped' effect that reminds me a great deal of the blades found on the 'koummya' daggers, also Moroccan. While these, like the nimcha can be found in use throughout the Maghreb as far as Tunis, the key centers for manufacture were typically in Moroccan regions.

A note on the lacquering, in my experience, very old weapons collections often seem to have swords etc. painted over with lacquer, as a preservative. I have seen many extremely old swords covered in yellowed lacquer as they were auctioned from very old estate sales.
Whether horn or wood, I would defer to Louis Pierre or Ward, but it is my impression these hilts were usually with horn grips.

All the best,
Jim

[LPCA]

Hello.

Morocco had from the beginning XVI ° an army equipped with artillery and with arquebuses used against Malta in 1562 and against portuguais in 1578. The foundries of bronze artillery were settled in Fes, Marrakesh and Taroudant and the bronze and iron were imported from Europe.
For the portable weapons (blades and light firearms), it was Targist, Fèz and especially Tétouan - center considered during several centuries until 1920.
From the beginning of XVI °, the Atlantic coast of Morocco lives to settle down a chain of portuguaises factories (Feitoria) from Tangier to Agadir where from dealt, in particular, firearms.
From the end of XVI °, this business became intensified with the Northern Europe.
England, Holland and France delivered big quantities of pieces and mounted weapons, while the powder came from Italy.
In XIX °, start the imports from Liège.
Except this business, the supply also resulted from the barbaresque enclave of Salé, as i said it yet.
So, i suppose that if they were able to forge barrels, they can also forge blades of Nimcha.

As for the hilt, usually they are horn made. Those with rhino horn (imported from sub-desert areas) were mostly reserved to sultan's guard (as for Koummiya hilts) and officers or special order for rich people.

So, David, I suggest your hilt is not wood but horn or rhino horn (they resist better to high temperature). Easy to know it you sand smoothly your hilt.

Best to everybody.

Louis-Pierre

[ward]

Regarding laquer do not sand you will lose the patina underneath. use a little acetone on a rag and it should take it off. If it is resistant soak it for a few minutes it will get sticky at first and then you can rub it or use a toothbrush with it gentle cleanings are much better than sandings.

Regarding workshops these are not the massive shops that were and are prevelant in the more european countries. Most are a small shop roughly 30 x 12 ft with a few people working. There are still a few blacksmith shops in Fes and Meknas currently. The French and Spanish left a more lasting impression than the Portuqese in culture,language,etc. The Moroccans were more a collection of smaller city states including Turag,Berber, and Arab cities.

[LPCA]

Yes, Ward, that's right, workshops were not large plants, but tiny craftmen surface.
Have a look to this postcard circa 1900 in Oran.

As for the process, manufacturing was organised in 5 guilds in Tetouan (idem elsewhere)
barrels (dja' ibi) from imported iron or bronze.
locks (znaidi)
stocks
assembly
decoration
The parts circulated from the souks of the smiths & cabinet makers to end in the souk of the jewelers, as Marrakesh even today has.

Louis-Pierre

[ward]

yes that picture gives a good picture of how work is performed in shops. You have one piece done by blacksmiths,another does the gold,silver,or niello work. next the stock is carved and various pieces are added on such as lock ramrod,screws. Next another shop is visited and silver,brass,stones are added and finally another shop is visited to add any inscriptions that are engraved. One finished product goes thru a lot of hands before it is finished.

In Tunisa I saw the process being done in a shop AK's right beside early blunderbuss's and shotguns. Morocco is a little more sedate these days.

[LPCA]

See also this postcard of an Ali-Baba cavern. Tunis circa 1900 with a stamp REGENCE DE TUNIS.
A lot of very good things.... saïfs, berber & kable muskets, ....and carpets of course.
The Regency of Tunis had the same firearms process as Morocco, but at a less important scale. They had a foundry and a forge of artillery (Algiers & Tripoli never had) and for light firearms, their speciality was the marine (navy) blunderbuss.
On this link, you will see a nice example of a tunisian (berber type) musket of mine.
http://blade.japet.com/B-mok-tunis.htm

Louis-Pierre

[Jim McDougall]

Louis Pierre and Ward, thank you so much for sharing these wonderful windows into the past showing the very places where these weapons were created! and the details of their assembly.
It really is amazing to see these weapons of so long ago themselves, but to see how and where they were created truly adds new dimension to our appreciation of them.

I spent some time looking through some references last night, and found that sabres from Algeria (presumably these 'nimcha') typically had German or Italian blades, and in one line illustration this circular stamp is shown on a blade in the exactly same quadrant. Apparantly then, foreign blades being mounted were indeed stamped with these marks, and sometimes even with subsequent markings in later refurbishing.

Interesting to see how 'travelled' these blades often were.

All the best,
Jim