meteorite iron

Anthony G. · 20th February 2019, 03:45 AM

Hi folks,

Just for info. sharing and discussion only. No right or wrong.

Lately I have been going around shopping and people will tell me that this is a keris that is made from meteorite iron etc. I felt that it is marketing purpose only as I understood using meteorite metal to make a keris is not easy and not many people can do so. They can use the meteorite iron but not necessary can produce the result.

In addition to that, I was told that how do we differentiate it is from meteorite iron? The pamor should be cloudy milky white rather than shiny nickel esp. for Balinese keris.

What about your point of view? Thank you.

Rick · 20th February 2019, 04:01 AM

Here's something to start off with:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ight=hrisoulas

Anthony G. · 20th February 2019, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Here's something to start off with:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ight=hrisoulas

Thank you very much.

David · 20th February 2019, 07:52 PM

Rick has pointed out one thread on the subject, though i think that if you search our site you will find this has been a frequent topic of discussion.
My quick 2 cent tour of the subject is this. Belief is a vital component in all "kerisology". I have learned some time ago that it serves little purpose to argue with unsubstantiated belief when it comes to the keris. What i do know, at least from what research i have managed to find is that there seems to be only one recorded meteorite fall in the Indonesian area that provided iron bearing material suitable for keris making during the timeframe when keris are being made. That is the Prambanan meteorite which according to this site was discovered in 1797 (though i have seen reports that a part of this meteorite was also taken to the keraton as early as 1784).
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=18884
What remains of this meteorite is still on display in the keraton in Surakarta. So the earliest this particular material could have been used in keris was the very end of the 18th Century. Could meteorite have been used from some other unrecorded source before this? Possibly, though AFAIK there was never any recording of such usage in court record or otherwise before this. You would think that something as "heavenly" as meteorite used in making such and important cultural artifact would have received some attention in records somewhere.
The vast majority of the Prambanan meteorite was reserved for use in important court tosan aji. It has been reported that empus received small amounts of extra material to do with as they pleased, so it is possible that it was used in some keris created outside of the keraton. Still, i believe we are talking about a very select few keris here.
So back to belief. I have heard it suggested by some that EVERY old keris contains at least some amount of meteoric ore. That seems a very large stretch to me, but it is that basis for some people's belief system. It has been shown, for instance, that many old keris that display pamor do not even contain terrestrial nickel, let alone "star stuff". That the patterns in some of these old keris is created by pamor material that contained different levels of ferric material that created the contrasts when the blade received warangan.
Still, belief is a vital element in the world of keris and sometimes flies in the face of science and evidence.
When shopping for keris you are likely to hear many stories that dealers use to try to sell a keris. Like anything in sales, keris are marketed to the consumer in ways that the dealer believe will give them the best return on their buck. I don't believe there is any real way to tell for sure that a keris contains meteoric material beyond destructive testing, so again, this comes down to a matter of belief. In the end i choose to buy the keris, not the story, if indeed it appeals to me. I may not, however, be willing to pay the extra premium attached to the supposition that a particular keris used meteorite in the making without some provenance to support that. Such proof can almost never be supplied, unless the keris is recent and it's construction is a known entity.

A. G. Maisey · 20th February 2019, 08:53 PM

I agree completely David.

Here is another thread from just a couple of years back that probably says all it is necessary to say about meteoritic material in keris.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21925

Anthony G. · 21st February 2019, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I agree completely David.

Here is another thread from just a couple of years back that probably says all it is necessary to say about meteoritic material in keris.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21925

Thanks for the reference.

Btw, I got this keris where some friends said it is made from meteorite iron, but I doubt so. It is a new age keris made in the 1980s. I was told by others either it is made from Luwu iron instead.

La Pagaru · 24th February 2019, 10:02 AM

WORLD RARE IRON MINERALS, THE GREEN RUST SOURCE (GREEN RUST) WHERE ARE IN MATANO AND AROUND IT, ONE OF THE INFLUENCE OF THE EARTH OF HISTORY OF IRON AND EARTH ATMOSFER.

Although it may appear sturdy, ancient sedimentary rocks called iron formations - the main source of world iron ore - were once dissolved in seawater. How does the iron go from being dissolved to the banded iron formation? Dr. Itay Halevy and his group in the Planet Weizmann Department of Earth and Science showed that billions of years ago, "rust" that formed in seawater and sank to a green ocean floor - iron-based minerals that are rare on Earth today but may have been relatively common .

We know that there is dissolved iron in the early oceans, and this is a strong indication that Earth's free oxygen concentration (O2) is very low. Otherwise, iron will react with oxygen to form iron oxide, which is a rusty red deposit that is familiar to anyone who leaves a bicycle in the rain. Today, said Halevy, iron is sent from the land to the ocean as small insoluble oxide particles in the river. But this sedimentation model only appears as an accumulation of free oxygen in the Earth's atmosphere, around 2, 5 billion years ago. With almost no oxygen, the oceans are rich in iron, but that does not mean that iron remains dissolved in unlimited seawater: Eventually it forms insoluble compounds with other elements and settles to the seabed to give rise to iron formations.

The idea that one of these insoluble compounds could be a rusty green mineral, Halevy said, occurred to him during his doctoral research, when he tried to recreate conditions on early Mars, including red rusty iron sediments. "I got some green things that I didn't recognize at first, which quickly turned orange when I exposed them to the air. With a little more experimentation, I found that this is a mineral called green rust, which is very rare on Earth today. , because of its affinity for oxygen. "Today green rust quickly turns into familiar red rust, but with not much oxygen free around, Halevy reasons, it can be an important way to dissolve iron to form solid compounds and settle into the seabed.

Support for these ideas comes from Sulawesi, Indonesia, where the current form of green rust on Lake Matano which is rich in iron and rich in oxygen, is considered similar to sea water that existed during a long period of Earth's history. To test his ideas in detail and explore their significance, Halevy arranged an experiment in which he and his team recreated, as close as possible, prehistoric, oxygen-free sea-water conditions. They found that green rust not only formed under these conditions, but when allowed to age, it turned into minerals found in Precambria iron formations - combinations of oxides containing iron, carbonate and silicate.

Can green rust be the main vehicle for precipitating iron from seawater? Halevy and his team developed a model to describe the iron cycle in the early oceans of Earth, including the possibility of the formation of green rust and competition by transporting other minerals from iron to the seabed. Their findings suggest that green rust may be a major player in the iron cycle. Iron in green rust then turns into minerals that we can now observe in geological records. "Of course, that would be one of several methods of iron buildup, just as a number of different processes are involved in chemical sedimentation in the oceans today," said Halevy. "But as far as we know, green rust should send most of the iron to the early marine sediments."

DR .ITA HALEVY
(WEIZZMAN INSTITUTE OF WORLD AND PLANET SCIENCE)

20th February 2019, 03:45 AM	#1
Anthony G. Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 463	meteorite iron Hi folks, Just for info. sharing and discussion only. No right or wrong. Lately I have been going around shopping and people will tell me that this is a keris that is made from meteorite iron etc. I felt that it is marketing purpose only as I understood using meteorite metal to make a keris is not easy and not many people can do so. They can use the meteorite iron but not necessary can produce the result. In addition to that, I was told that how do we differentiate it is from meteorite iron? The pamor should be cloudy milky white rather than shiny nickel esp. for Balinese keris. What about your point of view? Thank you.

20th February 2019, 08:53 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	I agree completely David. Here is another thread from just a couple of years back that probably says all it is necessary to say about meteoritic material in keris. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21925 Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 20th February 2019 at 09:03 PM.

24th February 2019, 10:02 AM	#7
La Pagaru Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Indonesia Posts: 84	luwu iron WORLD RARE IRON MINERALS, THE GREEN RUST SOURCE (GREEN RUST) WHERE ARE IN MATANO AND AROUND IT, ONE OF THE INFLUENCE OF THE EARTH OF HISTORY OF IRON AND EARTH ATMOSFER. Although it may appear sturdy, ancient sedimentary rocks called iron formations - the main source of world iron ore - were once dissolved in seawater. How does the iron go from being dissolved to the banded iron formation? Dr. Itay Halevy and his group in the Planet Weizmann Department of Earth and Science showed that billions of years ago, "rust" that formed in seawater and sank to a green ocean floor - iron-based minerals that are rare on Earth today but may have been relatively common . We know that there is dissolved iron in the early oceans, and this is a strong indication that Earth's free oxygen concentration (O2) is very low. Otherwise, iron will react with oxygen to form iron oxide, which is a rusty red deposit that is familiar to anyone who leaves a bicycle in the rain. Today, said Halevy, iron is sent from the land to the ocean as small insoluble oxide particles in the river. But this sedimentation model only appears as an accumulation of free oxygen in the Earth's atmosphere, around 2, 5 billion years ago. With almost no oxygen, the oceans are rich in iron, but that does not mean that iron remains dissolved in unlimited seawater: Eventually it forms insoluble compounds with other elements and settles to the seabed to give rise to iron formations. The idea that one of these insoluble compounds could be a rusty green mineral, Halevy said, occurred to him during his doctoral research, when he tried to recreate conditions on early Mars, including red rusty iron sediments. "I got some green things that I didn't recognize at first, which quickly turned orange when I exposed them to the air. With a little more experimentation, I found that this is a mineral called green rust, which is very rare on Earth today. , because of its affinity for oxygen. "Today green rust quickly turns into familiar red rust, but with not much oxygen free around, Halevy reasons, it can be an important way to dissolve iron to form solid compounds and settle into the seabed. Support for these ideas comes from Sulawesi, Indonesia, where the current form of green rust on Lake Matano which is rich in iron and rich in oxygen, is considered similar to sea water that existed during a long period of Earth's history. To test his ideas in detail and explore their significance, Halevy arranged an experiment in which he and his team recreated, as close as possible, prehistoric, oxygen-free sea-water conditions. They found that green rust not only formed under these conditions, but when allowed to age, it turned into minerals found in Precambria iron formations - combinations of oxides containing iron, carbonate and silicate. Can green rust be the main vehicle for precipitating iron from seawater? Halevy and his team developed a model to describe the iron cycle in the early oceans of Earth, including the possibility of the formation of green rust and competition by transporting other minerals from iron to the seabed. Their findings suggest that green rust may be a major player in the iron cycle. Iron in green rust then turns into minerals that we can now observe in geological records. "Of course, that would be one of several methods of iron buildup, just as a number of different processes are involved in chemical sedimentation in the oceans today," said Halevy. "But as far as we know, green rust should send most of the iron to the early marine sediments." DR .ITA HALEVY (WEIZZMAN INSTITUTE OF WORLD AND PLANET SCIENCE)

20th February 2019, 04:01 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Here's something to start off with: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ight=hrisoulas

20th February 2019, 07:52 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Rick has pointed out one thread on the subject, though i think that if you search our site you will find this has been a frequent topic of discussion. My quick 2 cent tour of the subject is this. Belief is a vital component in all "kerisology". I have learned some time ago that it serves little purpose to argue with unsubstantiated belief when it comes to the keris. What i do know, at least from what research i have managed to find is that there seems to be only one recorded meteorite fall in the Indonesian area that provided iron bearing material suitable for keris making during the timeframe when keris are being made. That is the Prambanan meteorite which according to this site was discovered in 1797 (though i have seen reports that a part of this meteorite was also taken to the keraton as early as 1784). https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=18884 What remains of this meteorite is still on display in the keraton in Surakarta. So the earliest this particular material could have been used in keris was the very end of the 18th Century. Could meteorite have been used from some other unrecorded source before this? Possibly, though AFAIK there was never any recording of such usage in court record or otherwise before this. You would think that something as "heavenly" as meteorite used in making such and important cultural artifact would have received some attention in records somewhere. The vast majority of the Prambanan meteorite was reserved for use in important court tosan aji. It has been reported that empus received small amounts of extra material to do with as they pleased, so it is possible that it was used in some keris created outside of the keraton. Still, i believe we are talking about a very select few keris here. So back to belief. I have heard it suggested by some that EVERY old keris contains at least some amount of meteoric ore. That seems a very large stretch to me, but it is that basis for some people's belief system. It has been shown, for instance, that many old keris that display pamor do not even contain terrestrial nickel, let alone "star stuff". That the patterns in some of these old keris is created by pamor material that contained different levels of ferric material that created the contrasts when the blade received warangan. Still, belief is a vital element in the world of keris and sometimes flies in the face of science and evidence. When shopping for keris you are likely to hear many stories that dealers use to try to sell a keris. Like anything in sales, keris are marketed to the consumer in ways that the dealer believe will give them the best return on their buck. I don't believe there is any real way to tell for sure that a keris contains meteoric material beyond destructive testing, so again, this comes down to a matter of belief. In the end i choose to buy the keris, not the story, if indeed it appeals to me. I may not, however, be willing to pay the extra premium attached to the supposition that a particular keris used meteorite in the making without some provenance to support that. Such proof can almost never be supplied, unless the keris is recent and it's construction is a known entity.