Keris - javanese blade in Kedah mounts?

[Gustav]

Dear All,

I would much appreciate your thoughts on this one. Actually quality/state of preservation of the blade wasn't acceptable for me, yet the whole was so interesting, that I decided to go for it.

The blade is 32,5 cm long, pesi 5,2 cm. If pesi was cut, it happened a long time ago, there are no signs of this procedure left. The blade fits perfectly in the sheath, at the mouth of the sheath as well as in the length.

There was a lot of rust between blade and Gonjo, Gonjo has been pushed down about 1 mm down the Pesi.

The mounts becouse of the finial (buntut) could be atributed to Kedah (this sultanate interests me more and more; I would like to open a separate thread on Keris from there). Sampir is made from black, very dense wood (Kenaung?).

My general question is the provenance of the blade: is this an older javanese blade, or could it perhaps be an old peninsular blade, perhaps a proto-Malela blade? I am really interested in all aspects of "this is so, becouse" regarding it.

My thoughts are:

the pamor looks Javanese;

the blade in current state is to short for a Javanese blade, as is the Pesi;

Ricikan look very Javanese, yet the protruding tip at the Gandhik side of Gonjo is perhaps a little bit strange.

As I said, I am interested in every aspect regarding this keris.

[Gustav]

More pictures:

[T. Koch]

Compaired to some of you guys I know almost nothing about keris and I unfortunately can't help you, but I wanted to say that I really really like it - it really touches me in a way that few keris do. The dapur (that's the shape, right?) has a great smoothness to it, very graceful. The carved groove in the middle, which I don't know the name of, fits in really well too! The ivory hilt is just icing on the cake.

Cheers and enjoy, - Thor

[T. Koch]

Is it elephant or whale btw?

[Sajen]

Hello Gustav,

very interesting keris, congrats! Not sure if the blade is javanese. I see also Madura and Minang features, or I am wrong? Can you post pictures from the blade alone that we can see the pesi?

Thor, handle material is clearly hippo ivory IMHO.

Regards,

Detlef

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

handle material is clearly hippo ivory IMHO.

I am missing the typical spots along the crack - hippo has been quite commonly used with peninsular and Sumatran hilts though. Maybe some more pics could help, Gustav?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

Congrats, nice score! I also do like the selut: quality seems quite above average!

Actually quality/state of preservation of the blade wasn't acceptable for me, yet the whole was so interesting, that I decided to go for it.

The blade doesn't look bad to me - quite some substance left, it seems?

IMVHO the ricikan look a bit rudimentary and were possibly never up to Jawa kraton quality standards though - however, this picture might change if you hypothesize major loss due to edge corrosion/repair...

The blade is 32,5 cm long, pesi 5,2 cm. If pesi was cut, it happened a long time ago, there are no signs of this procedure left.

Would also like to see the pesi!

The blade fits perfectly in the sheath, at the mouth of the sheath as well as in the length.

To me the crosspiece looks like a somewhat later replacement - how does it look inside?

Sampir is made from black, very dense wood (Kenaung?).

Are you sure this isn't dyed wood?

My general question is the provenance of the blade: is this an older javanese blade, or could it perhaps be an old peninsular blade, perhaps a proto-Malela blade?

It's not a Malela blade. I believe Detlef may be up to something: size and dhapur would fit quite well with Minang Kabau esthetics; also a wavy gonjo and Javanese-inspired ricikan (and pamor) are not that rare with Minang keris.

I wouldn't be surprised if this were a N Malay keris blade crafted with heavy Minang influence. Expat Minang have had quite a bit of social/political influence regionally (in Negri Sembilan).

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

Thor, thank you for the enthusiastic comments. Here a good source for names of different features on a Keris blade:

http://kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

Thank you very much for your comments, Detlef and Kai. Regarding the everlasting question "hippo or elephant", I must admit, I gave up this subject a time ago. May be I am not talented enough for it . There is a line of dots (or more precisely, a few dots on a line), which are not so distinct as on another hilt I have, which is sea ivory for sure.

A good thread regarding ivory:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=ivory

Tomorrov I will take a few more pictures of hilt and Pesi.

Kai:

the Ricikan was never Javanese first class standard on this blade for sure. This is an average blade.

Pesi: tomorrow, if it's not snowing.

Sampir: this was my suspicion also, before I received it. The wood is very dense; its quite dark, black where the oiled blade touched it, and it surely is old.

Blade: I never said, it is a Malela blade. It has Pamor. What I ment is:

IF it isn't a Javanese blade, IF it is a N. Malay Peninsula blade, and IF it is an older one, this MAYBE could be a form, which participated to the development of Malela blades. I feel something like this looking on the famous Paul's 13 Luk Malela blade, which is more on Javanese side then most Malela blades (Poyuhan, lack of Bugis type Gandhik), and which perhaps shares a few superficial similarities with my village quality specimen.

I think, you and Detlef are wright about certain Minang traits. Yet I also suppose, the Minang Keris (which is a deep mystery for me) was influenced or created by a Javanese form. And perhaps Peninsula was reached by both forms, this particular Javanese and Minang? Speculations, speculations...

[Henk]

Read these two threads.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14882
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4802

[Gustav]

Here are the pictures of the hilt and Pesi.

Thank you for the links, Henk. May I ask you to explain your points please?

[T. Koch]

Hi Gustav! Thank you so much for the diagrams with the keris nomenclature - they have been added to my ever growing library. Regarding the material of the hilt, I would need sharper pictures to comfortably be able to give you my opinion on it, so I'll just say that I think it looks beautiful. I am really a sucker for stained ivory and your hilt has this wonderful warmness to it.

Hi kai, I see the little row of spots that you mention. I've heard before that hippo ivory should have such spotted lines, but never more than anecdotal information. Do you by any chance have a reference in this regard? I would love the chance to seek out the source.


Cordially, - Thor

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Here are the pictures of the hilt and Pesi.

Thank you for posting the pictures, agree, the pesi (and the blade) don't look like a Jawa one. Pesi look like of some of my Miang blades. Maybe Kai have given the direction.

Regards,

Detlef

[Henk]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Thank you for the links, Henk. May I ask you to explain your points please?

Sorry for the late answer.

I explained in these links that in the Sumatra area the javanese keris was highly sought after. Sailors brought javanese blades back from their trading journeys and blacksmiths started making keris after javanese examples.

So, your keris could be a javanese keris. But it is also possible it is local made after javanese example.