Kirpans not allowed

[Jens Nordlunde]

A Sikh, has in Denmark, by the court been ordered not to bring his kirpan with him when he goes out. The knife was not sharp, and the judge acknowledged that it was a religious knife, but as he said ‘a knife is a knife’.

This does not seem to make it any easier on the Danish collectors.

[Mark]

What do you suppose will be next? Plastic knives? Tattoos? It happens a lot, but I am always disappointed in a judge when he/she says something along the lines of "My decision makes no sense, and the equities are in favor of the other side, but I'm ruling against them."

[Lee]

So, at this point, may we regard the Danes as a free people?

[Battara]

Certainly their authorities must be enlightened.

[ariel]

I am not very sympathetic to the Sikh man: walking on the street, he will make an appearance of an armed person, an entity unheard of in Denmark. I do not think Danes have a duty to accomodate themselves to the religious expressions of a foreighner when these expressions clash severely with their national customs. After all, it is their country; it is the duty of the foreighner to decide whether he wants to settle in a country that bans his religious expressions.
I would not support the right of Shia Muslims to have an Ashura procession in downtown Ann Arbor, with knives, chains, blood and gore; or any kind of animal sacrifice or public human mutilation. People can have any religious beliefs they wish; they just cannot expect to have a right to exercise them openly everywhere. There is a freedom of belief, not freedom of action.
After all, Saudi Arabia does not allow consumption of alcohol even for sacramental purposes or public display of religious symbols, such as crucifix.
Sword collection has nothing to do with it: nobody displays his swords in the open on the Main Street.

[Rick]

I guess I would have to wonder if this were a crewman off a Danish trawler who had just got in from a trip and was wearing his sheath knife at his back in a dockside bar.
Has that scenario vanished from life in Denmark ?

[Jens Nordlunde]

The reason why they are getting more and more restrictions in Denmark, when it comes to knives is that there have, in the last few years, been more and more fights, stabbings and killings where knives were involved.

The reason why I started this thread was to warn anyone travelling to Denmark to be careful what you bring with you, and also if you sell to a Danish collector, to make sure he will get whatever he has bought from you – check with collector, he should know and ask him to check with the custom office.

[Rather]

Also in Germany the law is very strict, not only in view of guns, but since a few years also regarding knives. You may not carry a knife with a blade longer than approx. 4 inches.
Stilettos, shuriken and brass knuckles are illegal and your may not even own them (not to think about carrying them) The fine: up to 3 years prison.
Still we Germans consider ourselves as free people…

Nevertheless, fact is that there are more and more injuries caused by knifes, especially young hooligans create this problem, but 60% of the injuries are caused with normal household knifes and the above described restrictions are somehow rather a kind of propaganda.

[Tim Simmons]

I tend to agree with Ariel. It really is time somebody printed t-shirts with, Respect for the secular world.

[Andrew]

Gentlemen, let's please stay on-topic and not alow this discussion to become about religion.

Thanks.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I am sorry. My intention on bring this subject up was not to point it in a religious direction. I therefore hope that the posts here will stop, or that the moderators will lock the mail.

[Mark]

One of my issues with this type of decision (or legislation to similar effect), is that it so often is a cosmetic gesture that does not address the real underlying problem.

In the case of increasing knife violence, the problem is not knives, its the people who are using them and their reasons for doing so. Same goes for guns.

I do support reasonable restrictions, for example not wanting people to go around a city with a sword at their hip, or a rifle slung over their back. However, I dispair in these situations where there is an appearance of decisive or strong action that, in fact, has no real effect on the problem it supposedly addresses.

[HENRY]

"I do not think Danes have a duty to accomodate themselves to the religious expressions of a foreighner"
The Sikh in question may actually be a Danish national, born and brought up there ! apart from the way he looks he may be very "Danish" indeed

I think i understand what you are saying though and i'm sure this was just a simple error on your part. Moderation is the way forward.

[Naga Sasra]

I am with ariel on this one!

Having read the full text of the court ruling, it does give the answer to Rick's comment as the wearing of a knife in public is unlawful, UNLESS done in connection with a trade, hunting or in sports, so Rick the fisherman is okay

To wear a knife in public as part of a religious dress, do not qualify as an authorized justification to wear a knife.

This law cover ALL RELIGIONS.

As for the person involved, he is from India. Regarding moderation I am not even going there!

[Battara]

I wonder how much all of this restricts antique weaponry collecting.

[Rick]

Probably not at all.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I don't know, as i don't live in Denmark, but I will try to find out.

[B.I]

Hi Jens,
Have sent you a PM

[ausjulius]

what i find bazar is the crazed fear of eged toold and guns that many people in western europe. ,, and this seems to be very strong among the poeple leading these nations,,

im surprised by this because i consider these contries very safe , aspecialy germany and denmark,
and the sort of places where one would think it would be just fine to own and carry what you wish..
also what i cant understand is that violent crime was far more common in there contires 40 years ago than it is now,, yet they seem to think they are having a crime wave when someone gets stuck with a knife,,


the people in these countires sturck me as law abiding and not atall aggressive,, infact a rather passive population,, i never encountered anyone with the threatening manner or look,,
why would they think that their population is blood thirsty killers who will become carzed when they touch a knife or gun......

i think one could just lay down and sleep where they whished in germany or holland or denmark rite in the street, that is how safe it is,,
i think here the first young goon who crossed you would proably try to do you some harm just for he fun of it...
........


tomany laws make not fun ofr anyone,,

[Tim Simmons]

I think in North West Europe. The public display of knives not connected to a persons job of work. Is rather like nudity or smoking dope, loudly using the "F and C" words in public, some people argue to be free to do that. A matter of accepted public decency. Are they being denied "FREEDOM"

[Sikh_soldier]

being a sikh i belive it is my duty to reply to the above posts.

please do not compare such religious practices such as sharia islam with sikhism which is a peaceful equality based religion.
the kirpan means selfless service and righteousness, i.e only to be used in times to protect ones honour (usually anothers) such as a women being attacked etc. not for a pub brawl might i add.

not all sikhs wear kirpans only baptised ones, suggesting that they meditate for atleast 3 hours in the morning ridding one of such animal feelings of anger.
regarding the knife culture in europe (stabbings) i implore those who feel otherwise how many incidents where a sikh kirpan was used (illegally or otherwise) i am sure they are more incidents of snooker chalks being used

Also regarding "moderation in india" this is a very strange assertion giving india's size sikhs only make less than 3% of the population there so to categorize and make an assumption is unfair

i would like to remind my fellow enthusiasts that sikhs deserve their religious allowances especially in europe "With only voluntary recruitment into the army, young Sikh men helped to swell the Indian army from 189,000 at the start of the war to over 2.5 million at the end of the war." over 200 hundred thousand were injure with many killed in world wars of europe which sikhs voluntarily participated in due to injustice.

i respect all your opinions, my sincere apologies for any offences taken,

[Sikh_soldier]

Pictures of sikhs in europe
a sikh with a captured NAZI flag

[Emanuel]

Hello _Soldier,

Here in Canada, Sikh men are also allowed to wear the kirpan as a religious symbol. I myself have been around such persons, fully conscious of the reason for the kirpan being worn, and aware that it is not intended to do harm.

However, in most - if not all - western nations, the wear of a knife or any weapon is distinctly threatening and perhaps even offensive unless condoned by occupation requiring weapons (say police or army). It doesn't matter that there haven't been any incidents involving Sikh using the kirpan. It only matters that it is a knife-like object being worn/exhibited in public. I'm afarid that until the kirpan and its wear maintain any resemblance to that of a knife, people will feel threatened by it. I think a Tibetan phurpa would cause just as much of a stir, as long as it has some semblance of a blade.

While the religious rights of immigrant populations must be respected, the social norms of the host country must also be upheld. The Sikh man in question in this thread - and perhaps other like him - should understand the court's rulling not as an attack against his faith, and he should understand the reasons for it and accept the social limits imposed by Denmark. I believe that host nation and immigrant group should work to reach a common ground: perhaps change the look of the kirpan enough that it is not identified as a potential weapon with an usable blade, while educating people about its cultural meaning.

The question of what runaway governments are doing to collectors through idiotic laws is another matter, and has been discussed here before ...unfortunately. The belief that people will stop being violent the moment all blades have disappeared is beyond me...it's a total farce.

Best regards,
Emanuel

[Sikh_soldier]

Hi Emanuel,

What a well written objective post,
the sikh kirpan does indeed comprise of a usable blade (dagger for those that do not know) its name kirpan is separated into two words kirpa (selfless service) and aan (honour it is not entirley ceremonial.
however, sikhs have peacefully co-inhabited europe for so many years i believe it is unfair to impose such limitations all of a sudden.

sikhism is a philosophy rather than a religion and for a baptised sikh the kirpan is an extension of his/her arm. Strange that a religious pious man would scare one more than a police officer with a gun (airports etc)

the closest analogy of sikhs i can think of are the samurai.

We only fear that of which we do not know i believe education is the key

[Emanuel]

Hi Soldier,

I understand your analogy, but the fact remains that a samurai would not be allowed down the street with his swords.

I agree that the fear is not rational. Right now western governments seem to be promoting all kinds of fears in their populations for the sake of gaining more control over them. Have a look at this discussion: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Knife+Amnesty

Ideally, the host society would indeed learn about the customs of the immigrant group, and the population would learn that a Sikh man wearing his kirpan in public is safe and acceptable. Unfortunately, this brings the issue of precedent: other groups with different motives will argue that they should be given the same right and should be allowed to carry weapons publicly. In the case of an incident, the trouble of uncovering the truth behind one's motive in using the knife would be too much. Thus I think, some governments legitimately outlaw the wear of weapons, especially in a society that already has a specific "caste" with the responsibility of protecting society, namely the police. I do not want to sound offensive here, but perhaps - just perhaps mind you - in western society the wear of the kirpan is simply obsolete, regardless of the wearer's way of life.

This went on quite a bit but I just wanted to give you a view possibly held by some people in the west.
Since the issue of education came up, I will try to go to the Gurdwara in my neighbourhood and ask some more questions.

Best regards,
Emanuel

[Sikh_soldier]

Thanks again Emanuel,

very informative and reasoned sumamry. one last thing to conclude i promise

sikhs have overcome persecution one will never (even myself) be able to imagine, most severe the mughals who tried to wipe out the race alltogether.
To the limit of executing two of our sikh Guru's (religious messengers/guides/prophets)

sikhs survived extinction on numerous occasions with valour with their heritage,customs and culture intact.

For Sikhs, the kirpan and in fact arms in general are equal to the holy scriptures and most revered (worthy of worship) mostly as it can take life and give life (protect/save)

thanks emanuel i will say nothing more on the subject and try to please the other members and moderators with some cool pics.
if you have any questions Emanuel (or anyone) on Sikhism please do not hesitate to ask and i will do my best.(criticism is welcome too)

[Emanuel]

Hi _Soldier,

Fair enough, and thanks for the pictures, I love tulwars. Since we're talking about the kirpan, what do old/original examples look like? The blade is essentially a khanjar, but how different or similar are the old ones from the present ones?
Here in Canada, I've seen this variety:

I'll contact you shortly...
Regards,
Emanuel