help with the mark on a 1600 helmet....

[BerberDagger]

Hi at all,

I would ask at forum's collectors if is known this mark ? it is in a riding helmet ( I can not post full the helmet's photos becouse not my propiety and I dont known if the owner agree at full photos, mark no problem ... but it was offered me and Im thinking abaut ) , the helmet is a classic riding helmet from 1600 .

thank you for help .

BerberDagger

[Matchlock]

Hi Berber Dagger,

Please do understand that definite responses based just on the grounds of one single close-up are not exactly valuable.

Tentatively I should dare say though that this does not look anywhere near any maker's mark I've ever come across. Possibly an iventory stamp, if ever.


Best,
Michael

[BerberDagger]

Hi Matchlock,

I can ask tomorrow to the seller if agree with post of entiere item ... but the mark is clear so if known I think it can be recognize olso with a photo like this ...

I hope tomorrow to post the entiere helmet....

becouse you think an inventory mark ? I see a similar mark with WD and RC in horseman helmets from 1600 but never WR.

REGARDS

[Matchlock]

Sorry but this was my one and only guess.

Let's hope some armor experts will produce more substantial replies.

Best,
m

[BerberDagger]

Hello, here pictures of the entiere helmet , the helmet weight is 4165 gr . regards BerberDagger

[BerberDagger]

others photos. Best

[fernando]

Once this item is aledgely for sale, we ignore whether any negative comment may not fall within the seller's satisfaction, with consequent reflexes.
It is good that we refrain from posting comments other than the identification of the markings.

[BerberDagger]

the object is already my now so no problem .... let me know your opinions without problems ..... thanks

[fernando]

Then i say: magnificent .
Let's see what the connoisseurs say .

[BerberDagger]

thank you Fernando, I hope to have much opinion and comments please ... thank you

[BerberDagger]

hello, no comments ? olso abaut the helmet no only the mark ... thank you

[A Senefelder]

While I cannot help you with the mark, what you appear to have is a very nice example of a 17th century " savoryard " style tottenkopf curassiers helmet. This is a much more finished example of what could sometimes be very crude mass produced helmets for the average trooper ( the very defitintion of " munitions " armour ). The bowl is constructed in two halves which are joined along the crest via one half of the crest being slightly longer than the other, rolled over the shorter and crimped ( an increasingly common technique in the second half of the 16th century, and very common in the 17th ) and the halves overlaping front and back and being riveted. The details of the visor are especially nice. Based on the construction details from the pics I would say this is a nice upper end ( perhaps an officers ) 17th century curaissiers helmet. I am envious!

[Jim McDougall]

Beautifully described and wonderfully informative post Alan. Thank you so much!
While I know very little on helmets and armor it is great to have this kind of experienced assessment on the example Berber has shared here. The entire purpose of our forums is to share examples and learn together, and this kind of participation is outstanding. It is good to now know at least a little on these, and hope to learn more.

All the best,
Jim

[A Senefelder]

Thanks for your kind words Jim, my pleasure.

[BerberDagger]

Thanks for the valuable information Senefelder, in fact I wrote a classic riding helmet , but in fact is a Savoyard with human face mask ....

Thank you very much for the analysis in the construction, in fact the other exemple in my possession is much more crude and in burnished iron and olso more heavy abaut 4,5 kg ....

The mark or the inventory number could be a later addiction ?
I m not able to find in any of my resources a similar mark ..... probably Matchlock is in the right....



Berber

[A Senefelder]

with human face mask

The term tottenkopf means loosely " deaths head " which while having some unsavory connections to the German SS later was used to describe a familly of later 16th and 17th century cavalry helmets where the visor to a greater or lesser extent looked loosely like the face of a skull. There's a bit of an explaination in the arms race that goes along with this that needs to be layed out as to how you get here. The " prow form " visor of the earliest armets ( late 1420's early 1430's and continuing in used well into the 16th century ) and later close helmets, refering the the wedge shape of the visors,was purely a function the physics of the lance influecing armour design. Mounted men, made up of by and large in the 15th and a portion of the 16th century, meant the nobility and thier retainers facing thier noble opposities with the principle weapon of the day for cavalry charges, the lance. This pointed piercing weapon required a very steep angle to deflect due to its shape ( sharpely pointed specifically for impaling ). As guns became increasingly common especially as the 16th century progressed into the 17th both for foote soldiers and cavalry, lances were largely discarded except for a few " heavy lances " or " heavy currassiers" regiments. This changed the ballistic requirements or armour, as now after the discharge of firearms, swords and pikes ( pikes would be comming from below rather than at the the same height due to thier being an infantry weapon )would be the principle steel weapons which would be dealth with, so the visor no longer neede the very complex/expensive shaping of the " prow form " but could simply be a steel/iron hinged plate that covered the face entirely.The simplest form of " tottenkopf " is literally a pivot hinged steel/iron plate with a cut out for the eyes, and the mouth, often nothing more than two rectangles for vision and a small square, rectangle or diamond for the mouth ( there are numbers of these in Graz, i've owned two myself over the years. They were pretty crude ). Better examples tend to feature more stylized decoration including the visor, often as in the example above with a more anthropomorphic element, giving the visor more " facial features " ( I owned one at one point in which the visor had painstakingly been done to mimic a human skull, but due to the non functional nature of the gorget lames I suspect it was a 17th century funery achievement ).

[fernando]

Great input, Alan !