A lot of money for small knife?

Tim Simmons · 8th August 2007, 10:27 PM

With rather crude use of silver and I bet it is foil thin.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=002

RSWORD · 8th August 2007, 10:58 PM

It might be a lot of knife for a small amount of money. I suspect it fetched the price due to the rarity of knife versus the amount or quality of silver decoration. This is a knife refered to as a "pichangatti" and is of the Coorg. Like the Ayda Katti they just are not that common.

Ian · 8th August 2007, 11:21 PM

Rick is correct. This knife appears to have some age and is a nice example of a knife that seems to have been well used. These don't come up very often. Quite a reasonable price for what it is IMO.

The Coorgi are renowned warriors who live on the east coast of India in the north of the state of Karnataka. Their homeland has been defended vigourously (and successfully) for two millenia. Some people believe they are descendants of part of Alexander the Great's army. These men in Alexander's army may have come from what is now Syria.

The pichangatti is still worn by Coorg men on special occasions.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

It might be a lot of knife for a small amount of money. I suspect it fetched the price due to the rarity of knife versus the amount or quality of silver decoration. This is a knife refered to as a "pichangatti" and is of the Coorg. Like the Ayda Katti they just are not that common.

olikara · 9th August 2007, 06:15 PM

That was a beautiful Peechekathi as pointed by Tim. The Coorgis pronounce it 'Peechekathi' and not 'pichangatti'. Kathi in Coorgi and most other Dravidian tongues like Tamil and Malayalam stands for knife/dagger.

Even today peecehkathis are worn by Coorgi men for important social functions. The Peeche kathi cannot be purchased off the shelf even in the heart of Coorg(Mercara). It is often handed down over generations or has to be made to order and surprisingly not at a Swordsmiths shop but at a Jeweller's.

The jewellers were and still are the ones responsible for making the Peechekathis. This is because many of them are of ornate design and embellished with Gold or Silver. The Coorgi men would insert the Peechekathi at their waist and it was more of a status symbol rather than an instrument of war. All the Peechekathis that I have handled have the sharp edge only near the tip along the lower edge. Perhaps they were intended for use like the Katar or the Pesh-Kabz.

When it came to war and yes, as Ian rightly pointed out, the Coorgis were the Lords of War, they preferred to use the 'AyudhaKathi', which was invariably strapped to the Coorgi's waistband at the back or held in the hand. So we had the Peechekathi strapped to his front and the more potent 'AyudhaKathi' strapped to the back. Ayudha incidentally is Sanskrit for 'Weapon'.

Attached is an old photograph of an assembly of Coorgi elders. Notice the Peechekathi and the AyudhaKathi and how they are held.

rand · 9th August 2007, 08:01 PM

Saw that on knife Ebay, from the photo's could not tell if it was genuine or one of the newly well made copies. These are very desirable daggers and a good early example would normally fetch quite a bit more. Hope its a nice early piece and the Buyers gets a good deal on a genuine period dagger. When ever an item has fuzzy photo's a big red flag appears between my ears and I sit back and watch.

rand

Battara · 9th August 2007, 11:15 PM

As to the silver foil, I think it is more than foil, but yes very thin silver sheet, maybe 30-32 gauge. Not uncommon at all for these and other silvered pieces all over the world (some dha scabbards for example).

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2007, 11:56 PM

I have always been under the impression that the 'peechekathi' (thank you for the clarification on correct spelling and pronunciation Olikara)...was in actuality a utilitarian item, but as indicated certainly served as a status symbol as well among the Coorgs.

It seems that it has been referenced that the formidable ayudhakathi of the Coorgs gained an extremely feared reputation during interaction with the British in the mid 19th century, and huge numbers of these were confiscated and dumped at sea. I cannot recall exact numbers, but it would seem this may account for the relative rarity of early examples of these. I think the reference was in the Islamic firearms book by Elgood. Jens has posted some excellent examples of these resulting in some very informative discussions.

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 28th August 2007, 09:37 PM

This example of these not so rare knives is pretty much the same size as the last. The sellers info seems to show that many of these, and dare I say it those knives from Ceylon are not as old as often said. Often being early 20th century.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=010

spiral · 28th August 2007, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This example of these not so rare knives is pretty much the same size as the last. The sellers info seems to show that many of these, and dare I say it those knives from Ceylon are not as old as often said. Often being early 20th century.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=010

Not so rare? 2 on ebay close together doesnt mean that i think Tim? sellers, dealers collectors etc. see one fetch more money than they thought they were worth & so turn theres out. It happens all the time on things i watch.

Lets see how many more turn up in next 6 months.

i doubt more than 2.

Could be early 20th century, might be much older, the sellers says the source not its age when presented.

Ive only had one, it looked just like the one you link to. Artzi bought it for 3x that, he snapped it up,

Someone just got a top deal I think £75 ! wish Id spotted it, thats a top result in my book.

In India today it would fetch many times that.

Spiral

Runjeet Singh · 28th August 2007, 11:42 PM

I quite like these daggers, and have to agree with Spiral, they are quite rare. I think the one shown by Tim in this recent auction is right.

Although the chiselling on the scabbard pommel makes me think this particular example not as early as most. Hard to say without handling it. Could even be that the scabbard is later than the knife? Am I seeing right....or is the scabbard pommel Brass and the throat piece Silver? If that is the case, then the pommel is a later addition.

A nice thing, I would have liked to have bought it.

Runjeet.

spiral · 29th August 2007, 12:12 AM

To me Runjeet the double cross work looks clearly brass but, throat & chape look siilver with gilding work?

But as you say it needs to be in the hand to truly appraise.

Spiral

8th August 2007, 10:27 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	A lot of money for small knife? With rather crude use of silver and I bet it is foil thin. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=002

9th August 2007, 06:15 PM	#4
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 100	Peechekathi and Ayudhakathi That was a beautiful Peechekathi as pointed by Tim. The Coorgis pronounce it 'Peechekathi' and not 'pichangatti'. Kathi in Coorgi and most other Dravidian tongues like Tamil and Malayalam stands for knife/dagger. Even today peecehkathis are worn by Coorgi men for important social functions. The Peeche kathi cannot be purchased off the shelf even in the heart of Coorg(Mercara). It is often handed down over generations or has to be made to order and surprisingly not at a Swordsmiths shop but at a Jeweller's. The jewellers were and still are the ones responsible for making the Peechekathis. This is because many of them are of ornate design and embellished with Gold or Silver. The Coorgi men would insert the Peechekathi at their waist and it was more of a status symbol rather than an instrument of war. All the Peechekathis that I have handled have the sharp edge only near the tip along the lower edge. Perhaps they were intended for use like the Katar or the Pesh-Kabz. When it came to war and yes, as Ian rightly pointed out, the Coorgis were the Lords of War, they preferred to use the 'AyudhaKathi', which was invariably strapped to the Coorgi's waistband at the back or held in the hand. So we had the Peechekathi strapped to his front and the more potent 'AyudhaKathi' strapped to the back. Ayudha incidentally is Sanskrit for 'Weapon'. Attached is an old photograph of an assembly of Coorgi elders. Notice the Peechekathi and the AyudhaKathi and how they are held. Attached Images

9th August 2007, 08:01 PM	#5
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Coorg Saw that on knife Ebay, from the photo's could not tell if it was genuine or one of the newly well made copies. These are very desirable daggers and a good early example would normally fetch quite a bit more. Hope its a nice early piece and the Buyers gets a good deal on a genuine period dagger. When ever an item has fuzzy photo's a big red flag appears between my ears and I sit back and watch. rand

28th August 2007, 09:37 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	More sensible money This example of these not so rare knives is pretty much the same size as the last. The sellers info seems to show that many of these, and dare I say it those knives from Ceylon are not as old as often said. Often being early 20th century. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=010

8th August 2007, 10:58 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	It might be a lot of knife for a small amount of money. I suspect it fetched the price due to the rarity of knife versus the amount or quality of silver decoration. This is a knife refered to as a "pichangatti" and is of the Coorg. Like the Ayda Katti they just are not that common.

9th August 2007, 11:15 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	As to the silver foil, I think it is more than foil, but yes very thin silver sheet, maybe 30-32 gauge. Not uncommon at all for these and other silvered pieces all over the world (some dha scabbards for example).

9th August 2007, 11:56 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	I have always been under the impression that the 'peechekathi' (thank you for the clarification on correct spelling and pronunciation Olikara)...was in actuality a utilitarian item, but as indicated certainly served as a status symbol as well among the Coorgs. It seems that it has been referenced that the formidable ayudhakathi of the Coorgs gained an extremely feared reputation during interaction with the British in the mid 19th century, and huge numbers of these were confiscated and dumped at sea. I cannot recall exact numbers, but it would seem this may account for the relative rarity of early examples of these. I think the reference was in the Islamic firearms book by Elgood. Jens has posted some excellent examples of these resulting in some very informative discussions. Best regards, Jim

28th August 2007, 11:42 PM	#10
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	I quite like these daggers, and have to agree with Spiral, they are quite rare. I think the one shown by Tim in this recent auction is right. Although the chiselling on the scabbard pommel makes me think this particular example not as early as most. Hard to say without handling it. Could even be that the scabbard is later than the knife? Am I seeing right....or is the scabbard pommel Brass and the throat piece Silver? If that is the case, then the pommel is a later addition. A nice thing, I would have liked to have bought it. Runjeet.

29th August 2007, 12:12 AM	#11
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	To me Runjeet the double cross work looks clearly brass but, throat & chape look siilver with gilding work? But as you say it needs to be in the hand to truly appraise. Spiral