First Moro Kris (Straight Sulu piece)

[Croccifixio]

A bit of a background:

I'm a relatively young Filipino sword enthusiast. It's been less than a year since my interest was piqued. Since then, I've accumulated around a dozen or so reproduction blades, half of them Filipino and the other half mixed European/Asian.

After a rapid growth in my personal interest for Filipino swords, I stumbled upon this forum and began to read it regularly, in the hopes of learning more about these amazing weapons - art pieces, even, and perhaps a bit of my heritage as well. You see, my grandfather grew up in Sulu before clan warfare forced him to seek better pastures in Manila. WWII exploded and he faked his age and entered the guerilla army (he was 16 at that time).

His stories always stayed with me, and combined with an interest in swords from when I was a very small boy, led to my now-lifelong passion for swords, and in particular Filipino swords. I now have repros of a Barong, two Sansibars, a Talibon, a Luzon bolo, a Luzon kris, a Southern Gayang... but my heart always sought the beautiful antiques I saw here.

I went through almost all the antique shops in Manila, Pasig, and Davao, and due to this forum, finally went to Mang Ven along del Pilar st. We bonded quite a bit before I finally gave in to his crafty sales talk, and this Kris is the result. Once I had it in hand, I knew it was going to be mine, although I spent around 6 months in between work hours looking in vain for that gem-in-the-rough (and possibly found it in Davao, though the purchase was vetoed by the wife).

In any event, I'm glad to be here, and to finally post something of value. I hope to grow my collection as time flies by.

3 Questions for those more knowledgeable:

1. Do I remove the seemingly heavy rust spot near the tip of the blade? It doesn't seem to be spreading and it was the exact same size months ago when I first saw the sword. If so, what's the safest way to remove it? Steel wool?

2. In terms of maintenance, is mineral oil all that's required? How about the hilt?

3. The asang-asang has some greenish stain that I think is consistent with brass. How do I get it off? Or should I get it off?

Thanks so much!

- Joren

EDIT: For anyone who can help, how do I attach the files? As per the forum rules, pics should be uploaded, but the uploader does not pop-up when I press the "Manage Attachments" button, both for Firefox and Chrome. I've uploaded my pictures here in the meantime:

[Robert]

Hello Croccifixio and welcome to the forum. I am very happy to see another member interested in Filipino edged weapons and hope your time here will be enjoyable. Unfortunately I have had to removed your link to your photos and must ask you to read the forum rules and regulations (especially those pertaining to the posting of photos) before posting again. I am looking forward to seeing the photos of your kris once you have downloaded them directly to the server.

Best,
Robert

[Croccifixio]

Originally Posted by Robert

Hello Croccifixio and welcome to the forum. I am very happy to see another member interested in Filipino edged weapons and hope your time here will be enjoyable. Unfortunately I have had to removed your link to your photos and must ask you to read the forum rules and regulations (especially those pertaining to the posting of photos) before posting again. I am looking forward to seeing the photos of your kris once you have downloaded them directly to the server.

Best,
Robert

Hello Robert. Thank you for this. However, I'm having trouble putting them into the server. As I understand, a pop-up will appear once I've pressed the "Manage Attachments" button, but none do. Would appreciate your advice on this. Thanks very much.

[David]

Hi Croccifixio. Welcome to the forum.
Hopefully this "sticky thread" will help you figure out how to upload your images. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631
I don't know why your upload would not work. Were the photos too large? AFAIK there are members here who use Firefox and Chrome.

[Croccifixio]

I've PMed Robert about this, and shot a small video (https://youtu.be/VDLEWncUcOc) a few minutes ago. When I click the button, nothing pops up. I've tried Chrome, Firefox, and Opera. Might have to try on a different computer.

[Gavin Nugent]

Chrome works fine at home, on the phone or on the tablet.

I look forward to seeing the photos.

Gavin.

[Croccifixio]

An incredibly complicated solution was taken to get these pictures attached. Since I had deleted them from my phone, I resized them on the PC, emailed the copies to myself, downloaded them on my phone, and used the phone to edit my first post. I have to add them one by one because my phone's internet connection is quite erratic.

A very funny turn of events, though I will have to find a long term solution to my computer's predicament.

Hope you fine folk can see the pictures in the original post! I wasn't able to date this yet, but will be back in Mang Ven's shop soon enough.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Croccifixio

1. Do I remove the seemingly heavy rust spot near the tip of the blade? It doesn't seem to be spreading and it was the exact same size months ago when I first saw the sword. If so, what's the safest way to remove it? Steel wool?

2. In terms of maintenance, is mineral oil all that's required? How about the hilt?

3. The asang-asang has some greenish stain that I think is consistent with brass. How do I get it off? Or should I get it off?


- Joren

Hello Joren,

welcome and I hope, I can give some tips.

1: You should remove the rust spot, because the rust below the black surface is normally still active. Some decades later the rust spot can cause a hole in the blade. You can see this, if you use the flash if you make pictures, the black spot will become red. My technique is a little rough, i use a tiny srewdriver to remove the rust, plus japanese rust eraser (https://www.google.de/search?q=rust+...=1745&bih=1005). Finish with steel wool.
The best way is imho electrolytical rust removing (http://www.instructables.com/id/Elec...val-aka-Magic/).


2: I know, some collectors hate me for my words, but I always use modern synthetic oil like weapon oil, Slide and Bed Ways Oil or Ballistol. Ballistol is also a good rust remover. Renaissance Wax is a good alternative if you do not like the smell of synthetic oil.

3: I suggest, to leave the asang-asang as it is.

Regards,
Roland

[David]

I wouldn't argue with any of Roland's advice necessarily. I would certainly do all i could to remove the rust.
It's nice to see good lamination on what i assume is a later era kris. I would need closer examination, but your gangya does not seem to be a separate piece. A line has bee incised in the blade where that separation would have been.
The sheath is a nice example of this form. Also a later type. Looks like most if not all of the M.O.P. is intact. And i suppose the other material is tortoise shell? Nicely done.

[Croccifixio]

Originally Posted by David

I wouldn't argue with any of Roland's advice necessarily. I would certainly do all i could to remove the rust.
It's nice to see good lamination on what i assume is a later era kris. I would need closer examination, but your gangya does not seem to be a separate piece. A line has bee incised in the blade where that separation would have been.
The sheath is a nice example of this form. Also a later type. Looks like most if not all of the M.O.P. is intact. And i suppose the other material is tortoise shell? Nicely done.

Yes I agree that this seems to be a late era (post 50s) kris that was made in homage of its older brethren. The scabbard mouth is indeed covered by a piece of tortoise shell. The middle ridge along its length is prominent. The other side of the mouth and along it is plated aluminum. Mang Ven theorized this was scavenged off a crashed airplane. I also checked the gangya and it's not separate, since the incision trails off right at the end on one side. The blade is still wonderful - well polished, smooth, and clearly laminated. It has a single nick which might or might not mean usage, and it's quite sharp. Light doesn't reflect along the edge.

Thanks for all the advice. There's another Sulu kris which looks to be much older that I might purchase. I'm still vacillating between that kris and a barong, or even a kampilan (though I'm not the biggest fan of Maranao/Maguindanao weapons). I do have to sell most of my repros though.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

Looks like most if not all of the M.O.P. is intact. And i suppose the other material is tortoise shell? Nicely done.

Hello David,

agree with everything you have said but think that the panel in the back from the scabbard is from aluminium and not from M.O.P. and in the front from horn instead of tortoise shell but I could be wrong. Maybe Joren can clarify.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello David,

agree with everything you have said but think that the panel in the back from the scabbard is from aluminium and not from M.O.P. and in the front from horn instead of tortoise shell but I could be wrong. Maybe Joren can clarify.

Regards,
Detlef

Could be Detlef. Photos aren't really clear or close enough. I assumed the M.O.P. because i have seen it before on this sheath form.
I suspect this could be from sometime after WWII, though some might have other ideas. The hilt wrappings (and possibly the entire hilt) seem newer.

[kronckew]

the green on the asang is verdigris, very poisonous. on a small area like that you could use an old toothbrush (throw away/destroy afterwards) and a paste of baking soda & water to scrub it off, then rinse with warm water, dry lubricate. wash your hands well before eating.

i use ballistol myself. be careful of course not to get any (water/paste/ballistol) on the grips. ballistol tends to darken brass, giving it a nice patina. ballistol is mostly mineral oil with a few additives. some people do not like the anise/licorice smell. it was developed as a general purpose weapons cleaning and preserving fluid in the late 19c by the germans. it's even used medicinally as an antiseptic wound treatment. good for steel, or wood, tho it may darken it. same for leather. not recommended for cloth. it's a food grade edible product that can be used on food preparation equipment. not sure how it would fare on a complex kris hilt.

the steel should have any active (reddish or crumbly) rust mechanically removed as mentioned above. inspection is best done in sunlight to see the differences in the types/colours of the rust, red rust can look black indoors. the black patination in some areas should be left alone (but oiled).

brass brushes or brass wool, dental picks, pointy screwdriver, etc to break up any of the crusty red rust. olive oil makes a dandy lube for that. when you have absolutely all that will come off mechanically, you can stop, clean with hot soapy water, rinse with hot water, dry & lube with ballistol or mineral oil.

rust can also be stabilised after removing the loose stuff with tannic acid solutions. it's a safe product that will however turn the red cancerous form of rust into a stable black form, much admired and used on gun barrels. after treatment, neutralizing, rinsing, drying, you lube generously with ballistol & you are good for a fairly long time. p.s. - tea doesn't have enough tannins, it is used in beer and wine making and is available from some pharmacys or online. it's a powder you can mix in water. wear rubber gloves or be careful, it not poisonous but may discolour YOU...

in everything, take your time, be careful, do not expect a 5 minute effort to cure the problems.

google 'sword conservation' for more info, some is contradictory. as may be some info here.

[David]

Originally Posted by kronckew

the green on the asang is verdigris, very poisonous. on a small area like that you could use an old toothbrush (throw away/destroy afterwards) and a paste of baking soda & water to scrub it off, then rinse with warm water, dry lubricate. wash your hands well before eating.

If this is verdigris (i'm not sure how you determined that from these photos) it is indeed poisonous if ingested, but as long as you aren't licking your asang-asang regularly you are probably safe.

[kronckew]

yes, but it looks icky & better safe than sorry. if it is verdigris, it can rub off on other stuff, eventually getting on something you do lick.

...and kissing your sword is an old traditional ritual during oath takings.

[David]

It's not that easy to ingest Wayne. Here is an interesting account of women working in the industry that produced the stuff back in the 19th century.
http://tinyurl.com/p4p3q3r
And remember that this Old Lady that sees countless tourists every year is virtually clothed in the stuff.

[kronckew]

it's not easy being green.... they've cleaned the insides a couple of times. it was painted the std. US green that all government facilities have been and are painted in since year dot. i climbed up into the head back in the late 60's, the torch was closed as it was unsafe when i was there.

she originally looked like this: but we digress, so we should now return you to the regularly scheduled program. p.s. the US Govt. denies that the triangular shaped UFO upper right is of extra terrestrial origin.

[Sajen]

I am still not confident that the front plates of the scabbard worked from tortoise shell, to my eyes it look like water buffalo horn. And the asang-asang could be from low grade silver with copper content, this stuff get also this verdrigis (oxidation). This can be polished away with every sort of metal polish. But like said, I could be wrong.

[Robert]

Joren, could the security setting on your computer be set too high and thus not allowing the attachments box to appear?

I agree with Detlef that the decorative covering is made from buffalo horn and mother of pearl and not from tortoiseshell. I would also clean off any of the green that is present just to be on the safe side.

Best,
Robert

[Croccifixio]

Robert, I think you're right.

Thank you for your advice everyone. I will see to what extent I can remove the rust and vertigris.

The mouth does not look like buffalo horn at all. I've looked ay it several times and it seems more and more like turtle shell. I'll try and grab better pics later of the fittings.

[David]

What is the hilt (not the pommel which is obviously wood) made of? It looks like horn and metal at the same time in your photos.

[Croccifixio]

Possibly. The bindings are a bit tight, but I should be able to take a peek and maybe even get a photo of it. My current problem is that my iphone stores the images as big files (beyond the attachment limit). I'll keep trying to take more pictures.

[Croccifixio]

A few more photos. I really can't tell if the hilt is pure horn but it's non-magnetic.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Croccifixio

A few more photos. I really can't tell if the hilt is pure horn but it's non-magnetic.

To my eyes it look like tarnished silver bands.

[Croccifixio]

How would I test that without damaging any indication of age? Or is silver patina not very important for antiques?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Croccifixio

How would I test that without damaging any indication of age? Or is silver patina not very important for antiques?

It's a question of taste, I personally like silver polished up, others like it tarnished. You can let test it by a jeweler. And don't worry, when you don't like it polished up, silver get very soon again this dark tarnish.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

In its original setting this kris would likely have been maintained in an untarnished state. Oxidation of the blade or silver fittings was removed by those who owned fancy weapons (and less fancy items also). They did, however, often etch the blades of their weapons to highlight the patterns caused by folding the steel, etc.

Ian

[Croccifixio]

Thank you Detlef. I do want to honor the original maker and wielder and will do my best to restore its luster and repair the rusted areas (something I'm nervous about to be honest - I don't know how deep the rust goes).

Regards,

Joren

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Croccifixio

Thank you Detlef. I do want to honor the original maker and wielder and will do my best to restore its luster and repair the rusted areas (something I'm nervous about to be honest - I don't know how deep the rust goes).

Regards,

Joren

Hi Joren,

please share the result with us. Don't worry about the rust, when you don't treat this places the rust will still work and it will become more worse, special in the climate circumstances you are living.

Regards,
Detlef

[Croccifixio]

So I was able to remove most of the active rust (still have some spots to go) but I'm not sure if I got too aggressive. I used the screwdriver method but didn't use all that much force, just continuous strokes during my lunch break. Do you people think I should risk the patina and re-etch this whole blade in vinegar/lemon juice?