Three spears for comment

Henk · 24th December 2005, 05:31 PM

I bought three spears.

Any ideas about their origin?

Battara · 24th December 2005, 09:00 PM

Henk,

They look Indonesian, except the one that looks somewhat barbed. That one puzzles me, but does look a little African to me (but just a guess).

Justin · 25th December 2005, 02:44 AM

I agree ,the first two are probably Indonesian,but the last barbed one could be Indonesian or African.

All nice pieces,congrats!

Henk · 25th December 2005, 10:10 AM

Thanks for your comments Battara and Justin,

But Indonesian for the first two puzzles me a bit.
If i compare these blades to my tombaks, they differ so much. The blades are smooth like they are polished but still wear the signs of forging. The surface of the tombaks are rough and wear the signs of etching with warangan.
The base of the blades differ also to the tombaks. The peksi of the tombak is round and the angle of the smallest blade wich is good visible is square.
My tombaks all have a round mendak shape forged ring were the peksi ends and the blade starts, but I know that not every tombak has such a methuk. At that point the blade of the tombak have edged sides while the spear blades have thick unsharp edges. Those blades look so unindonesian to me that I really doubt they come from Indonesia.

Justin · 26th December 2005, 05:06 AM

Not all Indonesian stuff is pamor.I am sure I have seen both the first two spears pictured in 'Weapons of the Indonesian Arch.' I could be wrong but I think they are Sumatran, and not necessarily 'tomboks'.

Henk · 26th December 2005, 10:41 AM

A bit too much focused on pamor, I guess. You're right, Justin. I will take a look in my books if I run up to such sumatran spears. Thanks for putting me back on earth

Battara · 26th December 2005, 12:09 PM

Yes, Justin brings up an excellent point (again like the one on my head

). There are some spears from Borneo that also do not have pamor, or at least not noticable pamor. In fact, some Borneo tombak may be Moro or linked to Moro spears since there are Moros living on and around Borneo. This may explain the square peksi (though I have seen mostly round Moro peksi).

Henk · 26th December 2005, 01:12 PM

Justin and Battara,

You guys are completely right. I've been stupid and ignorant. I just looked through the book by Van Zonneveld and guess what? Just search the page with spears and you know enough. The most beautiful examples in wich the first two spears just lovely would fit in. Those two probably come from Sumatra or Borneo.

Thanks again guys for opening my eyes.

Has anybody still an idea about the third one? The spear mouth, if i may call it that way, is wrapped with copper wire.

Justin · 26th December 2005, 05:26 PM

Glad to help,

.

The third one is tricky. The barbs make me think its African,and it may well be,but overall it seems Indonesian as well,if you bought it with the other two then I would suspect it may be from the same place as the first two.

They definately had barbed spears next door in the Philippines:

http://www.aiusa.com/medsword/rila/krieger.html

Tim Simmons · 26th December 2005, 05:34 PM

I would tend to agree with Justin, although one might at first glance think Africa, I am not sure. In the dark back of my mind I think I have seen a picture of something very similar but cannot quite think where. I think it is very nice. Tim

Battara · 27th December 2005, 06:18 AM

The 2 reasons I would vote for Africa for the last one is:

a) the barbs and they manner they are pointed
b) as opposed to many Indonesian and Philippine spears and weapons, Africans make more use of pure copper and copper coil wrap

BTW - the spears that do have barbs from the Philippines are from the Igorot tribes of Luzon and point in one direction.

Henk · 27th December 2005, 03:30 PM

Yes, the link shows barbed spears with the barbs in the same direction indeed.

I bought the spears together with some sumatran pieces, but also the yagathan I showed in another thread and that possible Phillipine dagger was in the buy and a kukri. It was a bit of a mix.

The haft of our "african" spear becomes thicker after 20 cm. The middle part is 82 cm long and ends in a thicker end of 26 cm. I think the haft is bambu although it hasn't the bambu knots. But color and feeling of the wood gives me the idea of bambu and it looks like the tree parts are stuck into each other and are attached very firmly. The haft is old and not a recent replacement.

erikscollectables · 19th August 2010, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

I bought three spears.

Any ideas about their origin?

The first is Batak to me the second also North Sumatran - maybe Aceh or also Batak - the third is a riddle....

katana · 19th August 2010, 02:33 PM

The third spear does seem African to me.....possibly a Zande 'makrigga' . There seems to be a fine wire 'woven' collar, which is similar to some decoration found on African weapons.....could you post a better picture of the 'collar' ?

Regards David

Henk · 19th August 2010, 08:15 PM

David,

I hope these pictures give you the information you want. And of course I hope you can enlighten us

The shaft could be cane like Rick mentioned in the other thread of texspearchunker. Or maybe an african bamboo specie. The typical bamboo knots are missing on this shaft.

Regards, Henk

katana · 19th August 2010, 10:01 PM

Hi Henk,
that is the type of wire-work I have seen on a few African spears....the wire 'coiled' (spring like) around a central wire and then wrapped around the shaft. However, I am sorry I cannot remember the origins of those spears at the moment

...will do some 'digging' The very fine wire wrapped above is probably 'telephone' wire or coil windings from small electric motors. I do not think it very old ....my guess around mid 20th C.

Kind Regards David

Henk · 19th August 2010, 10:42 PM

David,

Hope you can dig up the info. Would apreciate it very much.

The very fine wire is yellow copper also. Was telephone wire or coil windings from small electric motors not red copper wire? I used to break up some of that stuff in my younger years with friends in an attempt to do some technical time spending

I cann't remember seeing yellow copper wire in those things then.

Your age guess could be very correct. It would surprise me if this one is much older.

Thanks and regards, Henk

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2010, 11:39 PM

Actually many southern Sudanese spears did use bamboo, and from I understand this was from Nuba regions. This barbed style spear does seem to resemble some Sudanese spears, though it does seem rather sheet like steel and more likely fairly modern. Interesting on the coiled wire also, and how surplus or salvaged materials are always put to use in these ways, incredibly industrious.
It does seem that Zande, as David suggested might be quite possible also, as they are situated in regions of southwest Sudan, along with Congo regions in the northeast part, and the influences mentioned might well be a factor.

All best regards,
Jim

Henk · 20th August 2010, 09:55 AM

Jim,

Thank you for your input. Although the blade is rather thick it isn't as far as i can see a forged blade but a sheet like steel blade like you noticed.

Thanks and regards, Henk

katana · 21st August 2010, 02:30 PM

Hi Henk,
check this out.....notice the decoration

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=gille

and this page.....scroll down (approx. 1/4 page)

http://www.ezakwantu.com/Gallery%20A...%20Weapons.htm

Regards David

Henk · 21st August 2010, 04:14 PM

Hi David,

Awsome. So it is Somali, Danakil, a ceremonial spear.

Great!! Thanks David!

Regards, Henk

katana · 21st August 2010, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Hi David,

Awsome. So it is Somali, Danakil, a ceremonial spear.

Great!! Thanks David!

Regards, Henk

You're very welcome

Regards David

Andy Stevens · 23rd August 2010, 04:21 PM

Hello folks, we thought these pictures of some of our new arrivals might be of interest. We've got them marked down as Somali or Danikil. The beatiful wire bound head in the lowest picture we've had a while and the quility of the workmanship is superb. The hafts on all appear to be wood.
Regards Andy and Karina

24th December 2005, 05:31 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Three spears for comment I bought three spears. Any ideas about their origin? Attached Images

19th August 2010, 08:15 PM	#15
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	David, I hope these pictures give you the information you want. And of course I hope you can enlighten us The shaft could be cane like Rick mentioned in the other thread of texspearchunker. Or maybe an african bamboo specie. The typical bamboo knots are missing on this shaft. Regards, Henk Attached Images

21st August 2010, 02:30 PM	#20
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Henk, check this out.....notice the decoration http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=gille and this page.....scroll down (approx. 1/4 page) http://www.ezakwantu.com/Gallery%20A...%20Weapons.htm Regards David Last edited by katana; 21st August 2010 at 02:52 PM.

23rd August 2010, 04:21 PM	#23
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Hello folks, we thought these pictures of some of our new arrivals might be of interest. We've got them marked down as Somali or Danikil. The beatiful wire bound head in the lowest picture we've had a while and the quility of the workmanship is superb. The hafts on all appear to be wood. Regards Andy and Karina Attached Images

24th December 2005, 09:00 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Henk, They look Indonesian, except the one that looks somewhat barbed. That one puzzles me, but does look a little African to me (but just a guess).

25th December 2005, 02:44 AM	#3
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	I agree ,the first two are probably Indonesian,but the last barbed one could be Indonesian or African. All nice pieces,congrats!

25th December 2005, 10:10 AM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Thanks for your comments Battara and Justin, But Indonesian for the first two puzzles me a bit. If i compare these blades to my tombaks, they differ so much. The blades are smooth like they are polished but still wear the signs of forging. The surface of the tombaks are rough and wear the signs of etching with warangan. The base of the blades differ also to the tombaks. The peksi of the tombak is round and the angle of the smallest blade wich is good visible is square. My tombaks all have a round mendak shape forged ring were the peksi ends and the blade starts, but I know that not every tombak has such a methuk. At that point the blade of the tombak have edged sides while the spear blades have thick unsharp edges. Those blades look so unindonesian to me that I really doubt they come from Indonesia.

26th December 2005, 05:06 AM	#5
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Not all Indonesian stuff is pamor.I am sure I have seen both the first two spears pictured in 'Weapons of the Indonesian Arch.' I could be wrong but I think they are Sumatran, and not necessarily 'tomboks'.

26th December 2005, 10:41 AM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	A bit too much focused on pamor, I guess. You're right, Justin. I will take a look in my books if I run up to such sumatran spears. Thanks for putting me back on earth

26th December 2005, 12:09 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Yes, Justin brings up an excellent point (again like the one on my head ). There are some spears from Borneo that also do not have pamor, or at least not noticable pamor. In fact, some Borneo tombak may be Moro or linked to Moro spears since there are Moros living on and around Borneo. This may explain the square peksi (though I have seen mostly round Moro peksi).

26th December 2005, 01:12 PM	#8
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Justin and Battara, You guys are completely right. I've been stupid and ignorant. I just looked through the book by Van Zonneveld and guess what? Just search the page with spears and you know enough. The most beautiful examples in wich the first two spears just lovely would fit in. Those two probably come from Sumatra or Borneo. Thanks again guys for opening my eyes. Has anybody still an idea about the third one? The spear mouth, if i may call it that way, is wrapped with copper wire.

26th December 2005, 05:26 PM	#9
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Glad to help, . The third one is tricky. The barbs make me think its African,and it may well be,but overall it seems Indonesian as well,if you bought it with the other two then I would suspect it may be from the same place as the first two. They definately had barbed spears next door in the Philippines: http://www.aiusa.com/medsword/rila/krieger.html

26th December 2005, 05:34 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I would tend to agree with Justin, although one might at first glance think Africa, I am not sure. In the dark back of my mind I think I have seen a picture of something very similar but cannot quite think where. I think it is very nice. Tim

27th December 2005, 06:18 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	The 2 reasons I would vote for Africa for the last one is: a) the barbs and they manner they are pointed b) as opposed to many Indonesian and Philippine spears and weapons, Africans make more use of pure copper and copper coil wrap BTW - the spears that do have barbs from the Philippines are from the Igorot tribes of Luzon and point in one direction.

27th December 2005, 03:30 PM	#12
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Yes, the link shows barbed spears with the barbs in the same direction indeed. I bought the spears together with some sumatran pieces, but also the yagathan I showed in another thread and that possible Phillipine dagger was in the buy and a kukri. It was a bit of a mix. The haft of our "african" spear becomes thicker after 20 cm. The middle part is 82 cm long and ends in a thicker end of 26 cm. I think the haft is bambu although it hasn't the bambu knots. But color and feeling of the wood gives me the idea of bambu and it looks like the tree parts are stuck into each other and are attached very firmly. The haft is old and not a recent replacement.

19th August 2010, 02:33 PM	#14
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The third spear does seem African to me.....possibly a Zande 'makrigga' . There seems to be a fine wire 'woven' collar, which is similar to some decoration found on African weapons.....could you post a better picture of the 'collar' ? Regards David

19th August 2010, 10:01 PM	#16
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Henk, that is the type of wire-work I have seen on a few African spears....the wire 'coiled' (spring like) around a central wire and then wrapped around the shaft. However, I am sorry I cannot remember the origins of those spears at the moment ...will do some 'digging' The very fine wire wrapped above is probably 'telephone' wire or coil windings from small electric motors. I do not think it very old ....my guess around mid 20th C. Kind Regards David

19th August 2010, 10:42 PM	#17
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	David, Hope you can dig up the info. Would apreciate it very much. The very fine wire is yellow copper also. Was telephone wire or coil windings from small electric motors not red copper wire? I used to break up some of that stuff in my younger years with friends in an attempt to do some technical time spending I cann't remember seeing yellow copper wire in those things then. Your age guess could be very correct. It would surprise me if this one is much older. Thanks and regards, Henk

19th August 2010, 11:39 PM	#18
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Actually many southern Sudanese spears did use bamboo, and from I understand this was from Nuba regions. This barbed style spear does seem to resemble some Sudanese spears, though it does seem rather sheet like steel and more likely fairly modern. Interesting on the coiled wire also, and how surplus or salvaged materials are always put to use in these ways, incredibly industrious. It does seem that Zande, as David suggested might be quite possible also, as they are situated in regions of southwest Sudan, along with Congo regions in the northeast part, and the influences mentioned might well be a factor. All best regards, Jim

20th August 2010, 09:55 AM	#19
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Jim, Thank you for your input. Although the blade is rather thick it isn't as far as i can see a forged blade but a sheet like steel blade like you noticed. Thanks and regards, Henk

21st August 2010, 04:14 PM	#21
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Hi David, Awsome. So it is Somali, Danakil, a ceremonial spear. Great!! Thanks David! Regards, Henk