Kinjal with Damacus / watered blade

Mel H · 5th May 2018, 04:09 PM

Hello All, I've had this, what seems to be generally described as a Caucasian Kinjal, for quite a while now and can't remember seeing one with such a pronounced pattern. It shows mostly in the fullers and gives me the impression that the outer edges of the blade are forged from a more homogeneous material with the pattern welded section only in the centre portion.
The blade is 25 cm (10 inches) long.
I'd be grateful for any information or opinions that may be offered.

Mel.

ariel · 6th May 2018, 04:49 PM

I am perplexed with the perfectly demarcated borders between the
fuller and the edges, but with both patterns intruding into the opposite's territories.
Could it be false damascening?

Oliver Pinchot · 6th May 2018, 05:12 PM

This is an Ottoman dagger called a kama dating to the mid-19th c.
The pattern welding is authentic, it's very well forged,
ground and finished. The etching is deep and crisp as well.
A nice example.

Mel H · 6th May 2018, 06:47 PM

Thanks for the input, I was intrigued by the demarcation and the amount of skill required to keep the line that way during the forging, I have no doubt that it is pattern welded as opposed to false patterning. It's nice to have a name (Kama) that ties it down to a particular style or region.
Mel.

Lee · 7th May 2018, 12:31 PM

That is indeed a gorgeous example and outstanding work; the pattern welding will only be in the center panel, it looks like there are four bands and I do like the contrast and clarity of that feature in your example. The appearance of perfect demarcation has been enhanced by judicious etching and staining within the fuller area. Nice, really nice. I have had an example for many years also showing great smithing skill and I have extracted an image of this from a document I prepared a few years ago:

ALEX · 7th May 2018, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel H

Thanks for the input, I was intrigued by the demarcation and the amount of skill required to keep the line that way during the forging, I have no doubt that it is pattern welded as opposed to false patterning. It's nice to have a name (Kama) that ties it down to a particular style or region.
Mel.

Mel, I agree with all above. The core is mechanical/pattern welded with several (4?) rows of twisted wire in a pattern known as "Turkish Ribbon". The "twists" repeat in a sequential order which indicate the technique. It is very fine, and not a false/etched.

Richard Furrer · 8th May 2018, 04:39 PM

It is common to polish the edges and etch the center. I have seen this on many pieces. The fact that you can clearly see the patterned core extending into the edges and into the tip is not something which would have been very visible (in some light yes) when it was new.
Ric

mariusgmioc · 8th May 2018, 05:01 PM

Hello,

Am I correct to assume that "watered" steel refers generally to wootz, while for pattern welded we should use the term "pattern/paterning?"

ALEX · 9th May 2018, 01:18 PM

Wootz and mechanical are both references to patterns. The same can be applied to watered/watering, i.e. general terms for patterned steel (although some use it to describe wootz). Better to use crucible vs. mechanical to distinguish the two.

Mel H · 9th May 2018, 10:11 PM

Lee, thank you for your very interesting document link, I now have a print out and will enjoy taking it in over the next couple of hours.
Mel.

mariusgmioc · 10th May 2018, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Wootz and mechanical are both references to patterns. The same can be applied to watered/watering, i.e. general terms for patterned steel (although some use it to describe wootz). Better to use crucible vs. mechanical to distinguish the two.

Thank you for the explanation!

Jens Nordlunde · 10th May 2018, 04:35 PM

Lee, thank you for the document, it looks very interesting.
Did you know that the chevron blades were made of mono steel and pattern welded steel - never with wootz.

I dont know the reason, but it could have something to do with the heat, when the chevrons had to be forget together.

5th May 2018, 04:09 PM	#1
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	Kinjal with Damacus / watered blade Hello All, I've had this, what seems to be generally described as a Caucasian Kinjal, for quite a while now and can't remember seeing one with such a pronounced pattern. It shows mostly in the fullers and gives me the impression that the outer edges of the blade are forged from a more homogeneous material with the pattern welded section only in the centre portion. The blade is 25 cm (10 inches) long. I'd be grateful for any information or opinions that may be offered. Mel. Attached Images

7th May 2018, 12:31 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	That is indeed a gorgeous example and outstanding work; the pattern welding will only be in the center panel, it looks like there are four bands and I do like the contrast and clarity of that feature in your example. The appearance of perfect demarcation has been enhanced by judicious etching and staining within the fuller area. Nice, really nice. I have had an example for many years also showing great smithing skill and I have extracted an image of this from a document I prepared a few years ago: Attached Images

8th May 2018, 05:01 PM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Watered vs. Pattern Hello, Am I correct to assume that "watered" steel refers generally to wootz, while for pattern welded we should use the term "pattern/paterning?"

6th May 2018, 04:49 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am perplexed with the perfectly demarcated borders between the fuller and the edges, but with both patterns intruding into the opposite's territories. Could it be false damascening?

6th May 2018, 05:12 PM	#3
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	This is an Ottoman dagger called a kama dating to the mid-19th c. The pattern welding is authentic, it's very well forged, ground and finished. The etching is deep and crisp as well. A nice example.

6th May 2018, 06:47 PM	#4
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	Thanks for the input, I was intrigued by the demarcation and the amount of skill required to keep the line that way during the forging, I have no doubt that it is pattern welded as opposed to false patterning. It's nice to have a name (Kama) that ties it down to a particular style or region. Mel.

8th May 2018, 04:39 PM	#7
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	It is common to polish the edges and etch the center. I have seen this on many pieces. The fact that you can clearly see the patterned core extending into the edges and into the tip is not something which would have been very visible (in some light yes) when it was new. Ric

9th May 2018, 01:18 PM	#9
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Wootz and mechanical are both references to patterns. The same can be applied to watered/watering, i.e. general terms for patterned steel (although some use it to describe wootz). Better to use crucible vs. mechanical to distinguish the two.

9th May 2018, 10:11 PM	#10
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	Lee, thank you for your very interesting document link, I now have a print out and will enjoy taking it in over the next couple of hours. Mel.

10th May 2018, 04:35 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Lee, thank you for the document, it looks very interesting. Did you know that the chevron blades were made of mono steel and pattern welded steel - never with wootz. I dont know the reason, but it could have something to do with the heat, when the chevrons had to be forget together.