Hilt Replacement on an Indian Dagger.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams,
This Indian Dagger needed to be reworked as the hilt was wrong. Either it was a punch dagger which had been broken and rejigged together with the shortened hilt turned sideways or an Indian Khanjar fitted with a broken punch dagger hilt(kattar). We had several problems in that the tang was very short and what sort of hilt it should have? We had available some mysterious solid horn tips which I think are standard cow horn..which have polished up nicely with a light grey green olive hue. We used silver pins to mirror the design of the blade decoration and finished the pommel off in simple silver. The scabbard has not yet evolved..but I think green velvet over a wooden core with silver filigree furniture at toe and throat.

Regards,
Ibrahiim.
Note; Picture 3 and 4 are true to colour wheras the last two came out strangely pink !!

[Lew]

Ibrahiim

It looks as if you reversed the grip on the dagger? Sorry but it looks upside down and it breaks up the natural flow of the design otherwise very nice work on the silver inlay

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Lew

Ibrahiim

It looks as if you reversed the grip on the dagger? Sorry but it looks upside down and it breaks up the natural flow of the design otherwise very nice work on the silver inlay

Exactly what I was thinking.

Ibrahiim,

If you haven't already cemented it in place, I'd have the blade the other way up.
TBH, if it's removable in any way, I'd definately flip it

I have to say that the modified Katar grip cut and turned sideways is unique in my experience.
I actually wonder if it is a period hybrid?
I wonder because the Koftgari seems similar on both pieces (blade and hilt) and on the top hilt bars it looks to curve around where the bar ends suggesting application in this incarnation.
To me it looks like it was meant to be a make-shift Chilanum.

Was the hilt solidly fixed?

An interesting thing definately.

Best
Gene

[A.alnakkas]

Salam Ibrahim, Shloonik wild 3ami?

I agree with Gene and Lew, Reversing the hilt would make a better flow!

Off-topic: Can you make scabbards for swords?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Could you please make detailed pictures of the two first pictures, showing the decoration clearly (without reflection), and also showing the to of the hilt.
I agree with the others that the blade should be turned when it comes to the pistol hilted dagger/blade.
Jens
PS. BTW I don't think I would have removed the old hilt.

[kahnjar1]

I agree with Jens. The original looks to be a match. All we have now IMHO is a modern made replica and a probable trap for future collectors who think they have an original.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams,
I agree with all the replies..to some extent. However;

The decoration on the original 'half hilt' matches the blade decoration however the hilt was only 50 % intact thus the decision to explore a restoration with a fresh hilt. Luckily this is not a problem since pitch is used in the fix therefor its very easy to change, modify or revert back. We considered to flip the hilt the other way but it does not look or feel right.

The initial design included some green gemstone work but we discounted that ~ perhaps I will integrate them into the scabbard.

It is always a consideration when restoring whether to proceed but since we have done I feel the effect is not bad ... naturally any work done is written up and goes with the items history so there is no attempt to cover its true ID. On the contrary since this project is able to be easily reversed since the fix is simply pitch. The original hilt is half missing and could make a restoration project in its own right however it is part of the history of this dagger so it stays with it..

I suspect that the koftgari work on the blade may have been done at a later stage to the old hilt koftgari ...

I believe punch daggers were often made from broken swords so perhaps that is how these two originally became linked. Now to switch or not to switch round that hilt !

Regards Ibrahi im al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim, Shloonik wild 3ami?

I agree with Gene and Lew, Reversing the hilt would make a better flow!

Off-topic: Can you make scabbards for swords?

Salaams... I dont know how the hilt got placed upside down ...perhaps we have a Djinn on this project !! Actually there was a lot of debate and it looks better as it is ...

We make scabbards all the time ... wooden core surround in hand tooled leather .. Ibrahiim

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams... I dont know how the hilt got placed upside down ...perhaps we have a Djinn on this project !! Actually there was a lot of debate and it looks better as it is ...

We make scabbards all the time ... wooden core surround in hand tooled leather .. Ibrahiim

Cant wait to see it reversed!

I'll send an email to you now regarding a scabbard.

Abdullatif

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Exactly what I was thinking.

Ibrahiim,

If you haven't already cemented it in place, I'd have the blade the other way up.
TBH, if it's removable in any way, I'd definately flip it

I have to say that the modified Katar grip cut and turned sideways is unique in my experience.
I actually wonder if it is a period hybrid?
I wonder because the Koftgari seems similar on both pieces (blade and hilt) and on the top hilt bars it looks to curve around where the bar ends suggesting application in this incarnation.
To me it looks like it was meant to be a make-shift Chilanum.

Was the hilt solidly fixed?

An interesting thing definately.

Best
Gene

Salaams,

Certainly it was some sort of modification with half a katar hilt and an Indian dagger blade... The tang being snapped short almost non existant and useless as a weapon. Being only half a hilt the ballance was off. We added a tang to the blade and fixed the new hilt with pitch. Now it is well ballanced and tight. Thank you for your input.

Regards Ibrahiim.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Could you please make detailed pictures of the two first pictures, showing the decoration clearly (without reflection), and also showing the to of the hilt.
I agree with the others that the blade should be turned when it comes to the pistol hilted dagger/blade.
Jens
PS. BTW I don't think I would have removed the old hilt.

Salaams Jens,

I have some pictures without flash but Im not sure they are any better..
I believe the two Koftgari designs on hilt and blade are different as the hilt design carries prominent + + cross symbols but the blade design has non. Florally they are similar. It occured to me that these are from two different weapons 1. Blade from an Indian Khanjar and 2. Hilt from a Katar dagger.

The Katar Hilt fragment seems to be modified as a dagger hilt. I cannot be certain but I suspect that the Koftgari work on the hilt was also done after the match up with the blade. To confuse matters the Koftgari work in the hilt uprights is not consistent on all sides neither is the work on the toe and top of the hilt the same.. The main problem with the hilt is its fragmentary nature seemingly only about 50 % of a katar hilt, somewhat light, weak and wobbly and off balance. Another approach would have been to restore the Katar hilt but Im afraid that was beyond our expertise. That combined with a miniscule tang led us to look at a new hilt project.

We looked at the balance and feel of the new hilt and fitted it accordingly. Putting the hilt the other way round felt odd... We deliberately went for this fit as the best option. Naturally having used pitch to fix blade/hilt the whole project can be reversed but it seems like a good balanced tight fix. so we may stick with it !

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I agree with Jens. The original looks to be a match. All we have now IMHO is a modern made replica and a probable trap for future collectors who think they have an original.
Stu

Salaams,
Thank you for your input. As you are aware we certificate every modification. You also know that most Omani Khanjars, for example, have their hilts switched sometimes several times and that after battles the winner takes all concept meant that many blade and hilt combinations changed according to the wishes of the winning side.. Hilt switch in many ways can enhance a weapon. In any case this weapon was a rusted, wobbly, old wreck with no scabbard and a broken, fragmentary hilt and no tang ! We think this Indian Khanjar is now rightly teamed up with its correct hilt style.
It is always a difficult decision to go ahead with a replacement restoration but we think we have got this one right since it was never a workable katar dagger and the fragmented hilt just failed to keep the weapon in circulation... "We either restore or chuck it away" was almost the choice.
Now we have a reasonable Indian Khanjar properly re-tanged and fitted with pitch and with its removed old hilt by its side and all supporting docs. The client seems to appreciate the work. We believe that this is allowable restoration though we weighed this one up for many months before we gave it the green light..

Indian Khanjar. Mid 19th C. Blade with recent replacement Hilt and new tang.. Restoration including Silver pin decoration done in Oman( July/August 2011), reflecting the beautiful, Koftgari work on the blade.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

I agree with Ibrahim on this. The restoration is very valid Imo and as long as he points it out when selling there is no problem!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I agree with Ibrahim on this. The restoration is very valid Imo and as long as he points it out when selling there is no problem!

Shukran Jazeelan yaa Ustadh !

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Nathaniel]

It looks fantastic, Ibrahiim. Good points regarding switching hilt tastes. Thank you very much for sharing. Beautiful job. Shukran

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

It looks fantastic, Ibrahiim. Good points regarding switching hilt tastes. Thank you very much for sharing. Beautiful job. Shukran

Salaams Nathaniel wa Afwan,
The weapons made for the Royal Court of Shah Jehan were also pitch joined at hilt and blade and the Metropolitan Museum records show how often the hilt switching occured. Personally I was pleased with the silver pin design and how well the old cow horn polished up. We have done lots of Khanajer but this was our first soirre with an Indian dagger and I'm glad you like it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[TimW]

If the knife was broken, I would have fixed it. In this case I would have kept it as it is (but that is my personal opinion), because the original repair tells an interesting story.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by TimW

If the knife was broken, I would have fixed it. In this case I would have kept it as it is (but that is my personal opinion), because the original repair tells an interesting story.

Salaams TimW,
The Katar hilt fix was a botchup. That combination would have fallen apart sharpening a pencil. However I accept your point; after all the project was placed on the forum for that purpose. The "knife" as you put it was indeed broken, so we fixed it. The original repair was a train crash! I dont see any story attached to the previous setup but I would be delighted to hear one..
Sometimes Indian Daggers were just ornamental i.e. To show off on the waistbelt at The Shahs Court rather than as a weapon and we even discussed that as a possibility. In the end we went for the full rehilt because of the state of the thing and because it was a broken half a hilt and we believed it was a missmatch wrong hilt style/wrong dagger style.
Personally I tend to avoid personal opinions myself, rather, I prefer sound research and reasoned arguement when appraising a forum topic. Or as one of my old commanding officers would say... "Mr when I want your personal opinion I'll give you it" !
This project took hours of planning and research and briefings in 3 different languages plus procurement of the right materials and workshop time and effort. What I was hoping for but didn't quite get from the forum was questions and constructive criticism on the various ancient techniques we carried out to redo this lovely artefact... all done by hand ...no power tools... hand cut and polished horn, hand made silver pins and pitch to join the blade and hilt as in the old way for blades in the "Shahs" workshop..
In fact I have developed quite an aversion to the dreadful term IMHO that I urge forum to penalise such comment because it adds nothing constructive to the knowledge base unless accompanied by sense and facts.. By all means get the books out and lets have a sensible kick the ball round debate...
Restoration is one of the main topics but we don't have a full facility to handle projects, questions and ideas... see my thread...that idea of a restoration library seems to have sunk somewhat despite a number of very good restoration projects ongoing.
I see no sense it sticking up a one liner reply that says "in my opinion etc etc "and then to be awarded that as I x post on the forum input score... On the contrary and with respect, I think those bland replies, whilst allowable, should simply score zero.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams TimW,
The Katar hilt fix was a botchup. That combination would have fallen apart sharpening a pencil. However I accept your point; after all the project was placed on the forum for that purpose. The "knife" as you put it was indeed broken, so we fixed it. The original repair was a train crash! I dont see any story attached to the previous setup but I would be delighted to hear one..
Sometimes Indian Daggers were just ornamental i.e. To show off on the waistbelt at The Shahs Court rather than as a weapon and we even discussed that as a possibility. In the end we went for the full rehilt because of the state of the thing and because it was a broken half a hilt and we believed it was a missmatch wrong hilt style/wrong dagger style.
Personally I tend to avoid personal opinions myself, rather, I prefer sound research and reasoned arguement when appraising a forum topic. Or as one of my old commanding officers would say... "Mr when I want your personal opinion I'll give you it" !
This project took hours of planning and research and briefings in 3 different languages plus procurement of the right materials and workshop time and effort. What I was hoping for but didn't quite get from the forum was questions and constructive criticism on the various ancient techniques we carried out to redo this lovely artefact... all done by hand ...no power tools... hand cut and polished horn, hand made silver pins and pitch to join the blade and hilt as in the old way for blades in the "Shahs" workshop..
In fact I have developed quite an aversion to the dreadful term IMHO that I urge forum to penalise such comment because it adds nothing constructive to the knowledge base unless accompanied by sense and facts.. By all means get the books out and lets have a sensible kick the ball round debate...
Restoration is one of the main topics but we don't have a full facility to handle projects, questions and ideas... see my thread...that idea of a restoration library seems to have sunk somewhat despite a number of very good restoration projects ongoing.
I see no sense it sticking up a one liner reply that says "in my opinion etc etc "and then to be awarded that as I x post on the forum input score... On the contrary and with respect, I think those bland replies, whilst allowable, should simply score zero.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

So long as a poster complies with our rules of conduct, he/she is welcome to post pure opinion. If those are not the comments you are interested in reading, don't read them. No one keeps "score" of post counts here anyway.

A question for clarification--you mentioned your "client". Was this item placed with you by the owner for restoration, or sold following your restoration?

[Atlantia]

Ibrahiim.

I think that there is some question here as to what the original hilt represents.

Clearly, (as I suggested in my original post) the koftgari was applied to the steel after it's modification to this shape.

I also still think that the decoration on both blade and hilt seem contemporary.

Was it original to this blade? (in as much as has it ever had a different hilt?)
I think possibly yes, quite possibly they have always been together.
I think that either way, the hilt in this configuration was IMHO completely deliberate. Strange yes, but carefully and skillfully made. Not by any means a quick fix or botched job.

As I originally said, I think it might have been to achieve a more 'Chilanum-esq' look.
Short tangs are often (in my experience) on blades cemented into metal or stone hilts.
Who knows why the maker went to such effort to decorate a modified Katar grip and mount it sideways on this blade?

When Tim suggests that there is an interesting story. He's right, there is!

I assume that from your comments about the condition, the Katar hilt was already cracked where the tang enters?
Presumably this suggests some force being used, so presumably the hilt was good and solid originally?

If it were mine, I would have liked to repair the original hilt and keep it.

That said! It's not mine, it's yours
And I think that once you've flipped the new hilt over, it'll look fine.

The horn looks like 'blonde buffalo'. I've not seen an indian hilt of this type made from it before, I'd usually associate it more with Kurdish/Ottoman daggers.

For me, strangely I think it looks like 'what it is': A Arab influenced hilt of Indo-Persian style.

I wouldn't associate the silver pinwork with Indian daggers, I would associate it with Islamic/Arab daggers.

So, I think you've taken an interesting item and turned it into...... another interesting item!

Have you flipped the hilt yet?

Best
Gene

[TimW]

I am not here to judge or tell right from wrong. I am here like all of us to learn about what we all love: ancient arms. The discussion on the choices we make whilst restoring and reworking old pieces and the reasoning behind them is as interesting as the pieces themselves.

I did not question the quality of the workmanship by the way... I am a semi pro knifemaker and can imagine the amount of time and energy invested in this piece.

Last but not least: I just try to be honest in what I tell. If I wanted to get the highest count possible, it would be easier to just say: 'Wauw, that looks great'. As I told allready, I'm here to learn, not to get into verbal fights.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Ibrahiim.

I think that there is some question here as to what the original hilt represents.

Clearly, (as I suggested in my original post) the koftgari was applied to the steel after it's modification to this shape.

I also still think that the decoration on both blade and hilt seem contemporary.

Was it original to this blade? (in as much as has it ever had a different hilt?)
I think possibly yes, quite possibly they have always been together.
I think that either way, the hilt in this configuration was IMHO completely deliberate. Strange yes, but carefully and skillfully made. Not by any means a quick fix or botched job.

As I originally said, I think it might have been to achieve a more 'Chilanum-esq' look.
Short tangs are often (in my experience) on blades cemented into metal or stone hilts.
Who knows why the maker went to such effort to decorate a modified Katar grip and mount it sideways on this blade?

When Tim suggests that there is an interesting story. He's right, there is!

I assume that from your comments about the condition, the Katar hilt was already cracked where the tang enters?
Presumably this suggests some force being used, so presumably the hilt was good and solid originally?

If it were mine, I would have liked to repair the original hilt and keep it.

That said! It's not mine, it's yours
And I think that once you've flipped the new hilt over, it'll look fine.

The horn looks like 'blonde buffalo'. I've not seen an indian hilt of this type made from it before, I'd usually associate it more with Kurdish/Ottoman daggers.

For me, strangely I think it looks like 'what it is': A Arab influenced hilt of Indo-Persian style.

I wouldn't associate the silver pinwork with Indian daggers, I would associate it with Islamic/Arab daggers.

So, I think you've taken an interesting item and turned it into...... another interesting item!

Have you flipped the hilt yet?

Best
Gene

Salaams Gene,
Agreed ~ silver pinwork is often seen on Arabian daggers but I'm not sure it appears on Indian work at all. My craftsmen are Indian but born in this country (Oman) and have inheritted techniques from their father before ... so they have both techniques. I was interested in the blonde buffalo horn point though the muddy looking horn we started with looks like some sort of Indo or African solid tip. The final polish looks more like light jade.. As to the history of the previous join up of busted "katar" hilt and dagger I suppose a story could be woven around it however I suspect it was a total botched job. The tang was loose and the hilt split at the base and the handle could rotate through 360 degrees; not good. Wonky, split, unbalanced and in our combined view on the surgical team that refixed it with a new pistol hilt unworkable as it was but worth pumping oxygen into. I think we revived it and we can live with your description Indo Persian Arab and I agree even humourously with interesting item converted to interesting item
I think having refered now to several books on the subject (though in fact our own forum has better references than most of them) of Katar I have not yet seen a katar blade of this shape, moreover, they tend to be typically straight, vee shaped, punch dagger style quite often with no tang since they are fitted to the crossguard part (the front bar) of the katar along the entire width of the blade. This blade is a curve and a quarter. Therefor how can it have been originally a Katar? If it was only worn for show (and many were) it must have looked a bit strange? Since it didn't appear to be a kattar dagger I reasoned it must need a different hilt ? Additionally we simply did not have the expertise to rebuild the Katar hilt perfectly as you can imagine that would be a dockyard job ! Anyway the old hilt is presented with the entire project including photographs and documentation and on flipping the hilt we can do that in 5 minutes.
Your comments and constructive thoughts and questions are much appreciated. Shukran Jazeelan !

Regards,
Ibrahiim.

[A.alnakkas]

Imho, the best of eloquence is to say so much in very little.

On topic:

As Gene have already said, Indians generally use some mineral type for such daggers. Though they may have used bakerlite aswell? It certainly looks beautiful now (would look better if you flip it so it can have flow) but it looks like a hybrid. Thats not bad ofcourse!

I noticed that indian silver workers here can do koftgari easily and some can do the animal hilt shapes so if you would contact one they might help alot in teaching your team how to imitate koftgari.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Imho, the best of eloquence is to say so much in very little.

On topic:

As Gene have already said, Indians generally use some mineral type for such daggers. Though they may have used bakerlite aswell? It certainly looks beautiful now (would look better if you flip it so it can have flow) but it looks like a hybrid. Thats not bad ofcourse!

I noticed that indian silver workers here can do koftgari easily and some can do the animal hilt shapes so if you would contact one they might help alot in teaching your team how to imitate koftgari.

Salaams,
The technique "koftgari" or as some people call it "damascening" (small d) is amazing to watch... my workshop can do it but it seems to be reserved more for steel application not horn handles... I have got a nice horse head in jade so I could have used that and would like to have a go at setting precious stones. The best contemporary koftgari Ive seen done was in Kabul this year but I know an Indian workshop which also excells and the speed they work at is mind boggling ! I have looked at the Metropolitan Museums animal hilts and they are staggering in detail and from the Shah Jehan period ... say no more. Just taking on a project like this means hours thumbing through Indian reference books and of course the forum archives ~ I can recommend giving simple restoration a go to anyone keen and capable and who is able to take their time. It helps if the work is able to be reversed as in this case but as you know that is in essence what happens with blades and hilts .. down the ages they get changed often changed up to a more expensive combination; so it goes on.

INFH ~ IM NOT FLIPPING HILTS ! Thanks for the note and best regards Ya Sheikh... Shukran Jazeelan !

Regards,
Ibrahiim.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams,
This Indian Dagger needed to be reworked as the hilt was wrong. Either it was a punch dagger which had been broken and rejigged together with the shortened hilt turned sideways or an Indian Khanjar fitted with a broken punch dagger hilt(kattar). We had several problems in that the tang was very short and what sort of hilt it should have? We had available some mysterious solid horn tips which I think are standard cow horn..which have polished up nicely with a light grey green olive hue. We used silver pins to mirror the design of the blade decoration and finished the pommel off in simple silver. The scabbard has not yet evolved..but I think green velvet over a wooden core with silver filigree furniture at toe and throat.

Regards,
Ibrahiim.
Note; Picture 3 and 4 are true to colour wheras the last two came out strangely pink !!

Salaams...

It now appears that the blade is from an Indian Chillanum of the variety "recurved blade"... whilst the previous miss matched rehilt came from a punch dagger. Regards, Ibrahiim.

[Atlantia]

Hi Ibrahiim,

Did you flip the hilt in the end?

Best
Gene

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Ibrahiim,

Did you flip the hilt in the end?

Best
Gene

Salaams Gene,
No Gene I decided to leave it unflipped. Regards Ibrahiim.