Gunong

Robert · 27th October 2012, 09:18 AM

Seeing as I had the chance to pick this up for literally next to nothing on epray I would really appreciate the experts assistance with determination its age. I do not at the present time have any information on the dimensions of this piece but from what I have been able to find out by reading the various posts on these I am assuming that the shape of the hilt is one of the main points in determining age. With that in mind I would guess that this would have possibly been made anywhere from the 1920's to the 1940's. Any and all help with this would be greatly appreciated. As for the present condition of gunong I think that it will be a easy restoration project. Here are the pictures from the auction.

Robert

Sajen · 27th October 2012, 12:14 PM

Hello Robert,

good catch, think that it is a early one, around 1920. Don't think that it is much later. I agree, after some restore work it will be a nice looking piece. Try to etch it, don't think that it isn't laminated. Please keep us updated.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 27th October 2012, 05:34 PM

Definitely worth more than "next to nothing".

I pretty much agree with Detlef. Definitely pre-WWII i'd say. This should be a fun restoration job. I image it will clean up nicely.

Battara · 27th October 2012, 08:11 PM

Good call for the 1920s. I also agree in that it maybe a laminated blade.

Ferguson · 28th October 2012, 12:12 AM

Sweet! Love the hilt shape.
Steve

Robert · 28th October 2012, 12:36 AM

I would like to thank everyone who has commented so far for your interest and help in confirming the age of this gunong. As soon as it arrives I will clean and take a very close look at the blade to see if it is laminated or not but just by enlarging and looking at the above pictures I already believe that it more than likely is. I am also looking forward to cleaning the left over glue "from where the hilt at one time had been wrapped with tape" to see if the hilt is of burled wood as I also suspect it to be. Again, I would like to thank you all for your kind words and help with this piece.

Regards,
Robert

Battara · 28th October 2012, 02:37 AM

If there are any designs in the guard, please post that too.......

Robert · 28th October 2012, 05:25 AM

Will do Jose. I'm starting to get excited about its arrival now as I only have the one other gunong which is quite different from this one. I hate to say this but I completely missed this one and the wife put in the winning bid.

Best,
Robert

Battara · 28th October 2012, 07:21 AM

What a wonderful woman!

Gotta love her.

Robert · 28th October 2012, 06:08 PM

Quote:

What a wonderful woman!

Gotta love her.

And I do, very much. One thing though, I do however believe she prefers Moro pieces over the more transitional Luzon ones that I tend to acquire.

Best,
Robert

Battara · 28th October 2012, 07:21 PM

Preferences are fine. My wife who not interested in any of my stuff, was interested in a yatghan I had a while back (and later traded for a better and rare Moro piece).

VANDOO · 29th October 2012, 01:29 AM

NICE ONE I ESPECIALLY LIKE THESE SMALL WAVEY BLADED OLD ONES. THIS WOULD BE A GOOD CHANCE TO TAKE A CLOSE UP OF THE TANG AS I DON'T THINK WE HAVE DISCUSSED OR HAVE GOOD PICTURES OF THE FORM OF TANG USED ON MORO GUNONGS OR ON NEWER ONES.

Robert · 29th October 2012, 04:00 AM

Hello Barry, and thank you for your kind words. When this arrives I will be posting close-ups of the blade as well as the tang and guard. I will also post pictures showing details of the crack in the hilt. I'm sure that I will also will be asking for everyones opinions on the best way to proceed with the hilt repairs including what will be the best glue for the wood and where to obtain cutlers resin "or pine resin to make my own" to reset the blade with. I just don't like the idea of using epoxy for this type of repair.

Regards,
Robert

Robert · 30th October 2012, 01:12 AM

Well. it has arrived and here are a few new pictures taken after I did a light cleaning of the blade. The blade is laminated and it is quite clear when holding it in the sunlight but I don't think it can be seen in the pictures. The hilt as can be seen has a piece broken out of the top that needs to be glued back into position. There are no designs engraved into the rather plain copper guard .
The sheath is missing one of its brass bands which will be quite easy to replace. Any opinions on the best way to proceed with the hilt repairs including what will be the best glue for the wood and where to obtain cutlers resin "or pine resin to make my own" to reset the blade with would be greatly appreciated. The reason I am asking about glue is because what I used to use is no longer being made.

Regards,
Robert

VANDOO · 30th October 2012, 05:24 AM

I USUALLY USE ELMER,S WOOD GLUE ITS WHITE BUT DRYS CLEAR AND IF YOU WIPE ANY EXCESS OFF WITH A WET TISSUE WHEN IT DRYS IT IS NOT EASY TO SEE THE HANDLE REPAIR.
I DON'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE THE TYPE OF GLUE YOU WANT BUT PERHAPS TAR WOULD WORK AS IT COOLS HARD AND CAN BE HEATED TO REMOVE IT LATER. THERE ARE SOLVENTS TO DISOLVE IT AS WELL IF YOU MAKE A MESS.

kai · 30th October 2012, 10:24 AM

Hello Robert,

Could you please provide a close-up of the inside of the hilt (hole for the tang)? That's a rare opportunity to have a closer look...

I'd also favor a traditional wood glue. However you'll need extra efforts to prepare a mold/cushion so that you can apply even pressure while the glue sets (a good bonds depends on the pressure but, obviously, you don't want to crush the hilt either); allow for some generous extra time (days) for the glue to set perfectly.

If this seems too much of a hassle, an good epoxy glue will also give an acceptable bond.

The break looks clean enough. Woods with higher amount of natural oils can result in weaker bonds though; you could try to degrease the break surface with acetone.

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 30th October 2012, 08:28 PM

Wood glue for boats is good since it's hardening more fast as normal wood glue. For fixing/pressing you can use wire with underlay tissue of course.

I am very curious to see the dagger when you have finished your work, I am sure it will be a beauty.

Regards,

Detlef

VANDOO · 30th October 2012, 10:20 PM

ONE THING TO REMEMBER WHEN DOING A GLUE JOB LIKE THIS ONE IS TO SWAB OUT INSIDE THE HOLE FOR THE TANG SO EXCESS GLUE DOES NOT DRY AND OBSTRUCT THE TANG LATER. HARD GLUE CAN BE DIFFICULT TO REMOVE ESPECIALLY THE EPOXIE TYPES.

Robert · 31st October 2012, 08:44 AM

Hello everyone and thank you all for the advice on what type of glue to use and the tips on making the repairs.

Kai, I will post the pictures of the inside of the hole in the hilt sometime tomorrow both with and without the broken piece in place and one of the open end where the tang is inserted. If there are any others that you would like just let me know before I get everything glued. I always allow a minimum of 72 hours drying time for any repairs using an adhesive before removing the clamps.

Detlef, The glue that I used to be able to get was marine glue from one of the local boat repair shops but unfortunately it is now out of production and they are using an epoxy glue now. The one that I was using was a water based glue that was not affected by water after it had dried.

Barry, tar just might work if I add a few things to it "like when making cutlers resin" to help make it firm when cooled. As far as Elmer's wood glue goes I used to use it before I started using the marine glue and will more than likely use on this repair. I was hoping that there might be something better on the market that someone has had experience using that might be better.

Thank you all again for your help and advice on this project and I will for the first time take pictures during the entire process.

Regards,
Robert

P.S.
After closer examination of the scabbard it looks as though there are two bands missing. The top of the scabbard shows evidence of a wider band and there is also evidence that there were originally two narrow bands. I was thinking of making the missing top band the same style as the ferrule. What would be everyones thoughts on that?

Robert · 31st October 2012, 11:42 PM

Kai, here are the requested pictures of the hole for the tang. If these are not what you are looking for please let me know.

Regards,
Robert

Sajen · 1st November 2012, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Detlef, The glue that I used to be able to get was marine glue from one of the local boat repair shops but unfortunately it is now out of production and they are using an epoxy glue now. The one that I was using was a water based glue that was not affected by water after it had dried.

Too bad, this wood glue is very good. Think we speak about the same glue.

Regards,

Detlef

kai · 1st November 2012, 01:06 AM

Hello Robert,

Quote:

Kai, here are the requested pictures of the hole for the tang.

Thanks!

Can you ascertain what tool was used to drill the hole?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 1st November 2012, 01:09 AM

BTW, I'd opt for the traditional resin recipe: damar is easy to order online, a bit of beeswax, and a filler and you're ready to go...

Robert · 1st November 2012, 03:55 AM

Kai, As far as I can tell the hole in the hilt looks to have been burnt in, It was more than likely made by using a small round piece of metal that would be heated red and then forced into the wood as far as it would go then the burnt material would be cleaned out with a small thin blade. This process would then be continued until the hole would be of significant depth for the tang to be inserted its full length. This could explain the irregular shape of the hole, larger at the starting point and smaller at its end but not maintaining a true taper. It would also explain the burnt wood smell that I noticed when cleaning the remaining adhesive from the inside surface of the socket. Of course this is all just speculation on my part and there is no way to prove that this was the way it was originally done, though it does make for a good story.

Regards,
Robert

P.S.
Cutlers resin is just pine resin mixed with a bit of beeswax and a filler but it looks as though damar resin is easier to find in small amounts and cheaper !!
Thank you for the tip.

Robert · 2nd November 2012, 08:15 AM

If there are no more questions on the hilt construction I am going to start the restoration process. There is one more question that I would like to ask. If anyone else has had one of these apart, was the tang offset from the centerline of the blade like this example? Thank you again for everyones help and suggestions.

Regards,
Robert

Sajen · 12th December 2012, 11:39 PM

Hello Robert,

some news?

Regards,

Detlef

Robert · 13th December 2012, 12:55 AM

Hello Detlef, Thank you for asking. I was thinking of posting these two pictures when you posted your reply. The hilt is done the best that I can do for the damage that it had sustained. The edges of the brake were really dark so I did a bleach job on the them and this is the result. They are now no where as dark as they were before bleaching and the seam though still quite evident is not as obvious as it was before. All it needs now is some wax and as far as I am concerned it is finished.

Regards,
Robert

Sajen · 13th December 2012, 01:46 AM

Wow, very well done! Now I am curious to see the punal when it is complete again!

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 13th December 2012, 03:44 AM

Nice job and you brought the burled wood back!

Robert · 13th December 2012, 04:20 AM

Detlef and Jose, thank you both very much for your kind words on my work so far. To be honest I was hoping for a little better result on the repair that I have done to the broken hilt but sometimes things just do not turn out the way you want them to. I will be posting more pictures as the restoration progresses. Thank you both again.

Regards,
Robert

27th October 2012, 09:18 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Gunong Seeing as I had the chance to pick this up for literally next to nothing on epray I would really appreciate the experts assistance with determination its age. I do not at the present time have any information on the dimensions of this piece but from what I have been able to find out by reading the various posts on these I am assuming that the shape of the hilt is one of the main points in determining age. With that in mind I would guess that this would have possibly been made anywhere from the 1920's to the 1940's. Any and all help with this would be greatly appreciated. As for the present condition of gunong I think that it will be a easy restoration project. Here are the pictures from the auction. Robert Attached Images

30th October 2012, 01:12 AM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Well. it has arrived and here are a few new pictures taken after I did a light cleaning of the blade. The blade is laminated and it is quite clear when holding it in the sunlight but I don't think it can be seen in the pictures. The hilt as can be seen has a piece broken out of the top that needs to be glued back into position. There are no designs engraved into the rather plain copper guard . The sheath is missing one of its brass bands which will be quite easy to replace. Any opinions on the best way to proceed with the hilt repairs including what will be the best glue for the wood and where to obtain cutlers resin "or pine resin to make my own" to reset the blade with would be greatly appreciated. The reason I am asking about glue is because what I used to use is no longer being made. Regards, Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 30th October 2012 at 05:16 PM.

31st October 2012, 11:42 PM	#20
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Kai, here are the requested pictures of the hole for the tang. If these are not what you are looking for please let me know. Regards, Robert Attached Images

13th December 2012, 12:55 AM	#27
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Detlef, Thank you for asking. I was thinking of posting these two pictures when you posted your reply. The hilt is done the best that I can do for the damage that it had sustained. The edges of the brake were really dark so I did a bleach job on the them and this is the result. They are now no where as dark as they were before bleaching and the seam though still quite evident is not as obvious as it was before. All it needs now is some wax and as far as I am concerned it is finished. Regards, Robert Attached Images

27th October 2012, 12:14 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hello Robert, good catch, think that it is a early one, around 1920. Don't think that it is much later. I agree, after some restore work it will be a nice looking piece. Try to etch it, don't think that it isn't laminated. Please keep us updated. Regards, Detlef

27th October 2012, 05:34 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	Definitely worth more than "next to nothing". I pretty much agree with Detlef. Definitely pre-WWII i'd say. This should be a fun restoration job. I image it will clean up nicely.

27th October 2012, 08:11 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Good call for the 1920s. I also agree in that it maybe a laminated blade.

28th October 2012, 12:12 AM	#5
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Sweet! Love the hilt shape. Steve

28th October 2012, 12:36 AM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I would like to thank everyone who has commented so far for your interest and help in confirming the age of this gunong. As soon as it arrives I will clean and take a very close look at the blade to see if it is laminated or not but just by enlarging and looking at the above pictures I already believe that it more than likely is. I am also looking forward to cleaning the left over glue "from where the hilt at one time had been wrapped with tape" to see if the hilt is of burled wood as I also suspect it to be. Again, I would like to thank you all for your kind words and help with this piece. Regards, Robert

28th October 2012, 02:37 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	If there are any designs in the guard, please post that too.......

28th October 2012, 05:25 AM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Will do Jose. I'm starting to get excited about its arrival now as I only have the one other gunong which is quite different from this one. I hate to say this but I completely missed this one and the wife put in the winning bid. Best, Robert

28th October 2012, 07:21 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	What a wonderful woman! Gotta love her.

28th October 2012, 07:21 PM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Preferences are fine. My wife who not interested in any of my stuff, was interested in a yatghan I had a while back (and later traded for a better and rare Moro piece).

29th October 2012, 01:29 AM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	NICE ONE I ESPECIALLY LIKE THESE SMALL WAVEY BLADED OLD ONES. THIS WOULD BE A GOOD CHANCE TO TAKE A CLOSE UP OF THE TANG AS I DON'T THINK WE HAVE DISCUSSED OR HAVE GOOD PICTURES OF THE FORM OF TANG USED ON MORO GUNONGS OR ON NEWER ONES.

29th October 2012, 04:00 AM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Barry, and thank you for your kind words. When this arrives I will be posting close-ups of the blade as well as the tang and guard. I will also post pictures showing details of the crack in the hilt. I'm sure that I will also will be asking for everyones opinions on the best way to proceed with the hilt repairs including what will be the best glue for the wood and where to obtain cutlers resin "or pine resin to make my own" to reset the blade with. I just don't like the idea of using epoxy for this type of repair. Regards, Robert

30th October 2012, 05:24 AM	#15
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I USUALLY USE ELMER,S WOOD GLUE ITS WHITE BUT DRYS CLEAR AND IF YOU WIPE ANY EXCESS OFF WITH A WET TISSUE WHEN IT DRYS IT IS NOT EASY TO SEE THE HANDLE REPAIR. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE THE TYPE OF GLUE YOU WANT BUT PERHAPS TAR WOULD WORK AS IT COOLS HARD AND CAN BE HEATED TO REMOVE IT LATER. THERE ARE SOLVENTS TO DISOLVE IT AS WELL IF YOU MAKE A MESS.

30th October 2012, 10:24 AM	#16
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Robert, Could you please provide a close-up of the inside of the hilt (hole for the tang)? That's a rare opportunity to have a closer look... I'd also favor a traditional wood glue. However you'll need extra efforts to prepare a mold/cushion so that you can apply even pressure while the glue sets (a good bonds depends on the pressure but, obviously, you don't want to crush the hilt either); allow for some generous extra time (days) for the glue to set perfectly. If this seems too much of a hassle, an good epoxy glue will also give an acceptable bond. The break looks clean enough. Woods with higher amount of natural oils can result in weaker bonds though; you could try to degrease the break surface with acetone. Regards, Kai

30th October 2012, 08:28 PM	#17
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Wood glue for boats is good since it's hardening more fast as normal wood glue. For fixing/pressing you can use wire with underlay tissue of course. I am very curious to see the dagger when you have finished your work, I am sure it will be a beauty. Regards, Detlef

30th October 2012, 10:20 PM	#18
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ONE THING TO REMEMBER WHEN DOING A GLUE JOB LIKE THIS ONE IS TO SWAB OUT INSIDE THE HOLE FOR THE TANG SO EXCESS GLUE DOES NOT DRY AND OBSTRUCT THE TANG LATER. HARD GLUE CAN BE DIFFICULT TO REMOVE ESPECIALLY THE EPOXIE TYPES.

31st October 2012, 08:44 AM	#19
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello everyone and thank you all for the advice on what type of glue to use and the tips on making the repairs. Kai, I will post the pictures of the inside of the hole in the hilt sometime tomorrow both with and without the broken piece in place and one of the open end where the tang is inserted. If there are any others that you would like just let me know before I get everything glued. I always allow a minimum of 72 hours drying time for any repairs using an adhesive before removing the clamps. Detlef, The glue that I used to be able to get was marine glue from one of the local boat repair shops but unfortunately it is now out of production and they are using an epoxy glue now. The one that I was using was a water based glue that was not affected by water after it had dried. Barry, tar just might work if I add a few things to it "like when making cutlers resin" to help make it firm when cooled. As far as Elmer's wood glue goes I used to use it before I started using the marine glue and will more than likely use on this repair. I was hoping that there might be something better on the market that someone has had experience using that might be better. Thank you all again for your help and advice on this project and I will for the first time take pictures during the entire process. Regards, Robert P.S. After closer examination of the scabbard it looks as though there are two bands missing. The top of the scabbard shows evidence of a wider band and there is also evidence that there were originally two narrow bands. I was thinking of making the missing top band the same style as the ferrule. What would be everyones thoughts on that?

1st November 2012, 01:09 AM	#23
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	BTW, I'd opt for the traditional resin recipe: damar is easy to order online, a bit of beeswax, and a filler and you're ready to go...

1st November 2012, 03:55 AM	#24
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Kai, As far as I can tell the hole in the hilt looks to have been burnt in, It was more than likely made by using a small round piece of metal that would be heated red and then forced into the wood as far as it would go then the burnt material would be cleaned out with a small thin blade. This process would then be continued until the hole would be of significant depth for the tang to be inserted its full length. This could explain the irregular shape of the hole, larger at the starting point and smaller at its end but not maintaining a true taper. It would also explain the burnt wood smell that I noticed when cleaning the remaining adhesive from the inside surface of the socket. Of course this is all just speculation on my part and there is no way to prove that this was the way it was originally done, though it does make for a good story. Regards, Robert P.S. Cutlers resin is just pine resin mixed with a bit of beeswax and a filler but it looks as though damar resin is easier to find in small amounts and cheaper !! Thank you for the tip.

2nd November 2012, 08:15 AM	#25
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	If there are no more questions on the hilt construction I am going to start the restoration process. There is one more question that I would like to ask. If anyone else has had one of these apart, was the tang offset from the centerline of the blade like this example? Thank you again for everyones help and suggestions. Regards, Robert

12th December 2012, 11:39 PM	#26
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hello Robert, some news? Regards, Detlef

13th December 2012, 01:46 AM	#28
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Wow, very well done! Now I am curious to see the punal when it is complete again! Regards, Detlef

13th December 2012, 03:44 AM	#29
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Nice job and you brought the burled wood back!

13th December 2012, 04:20 AM	#30
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Detlef and Jose, thank you both very much for your kind words on my work so far. To be honest I was hoping for a little better result on the repair that I have done to the broken hilt but sometimes things just do not turn out the way you want them to. I will be posting more pictures as the restoration progresses. Thank you both again. Regards, Robert